15:58:41 <mchua> #startmeeting
15:58:41 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Aug  5 15:58:41 2010 UTC.  The chair is mchua. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:58:41 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:58:42 <Rebecca_> We have a faculty member in our open source area - Phil Miller joining us
15:58:54 <mchua> #meetingname UAT + TOS
15:58:54 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'uat_+_tos'
15:59:01 <mchua> #chair Rebecca_ mwhitehe
15:59:01 <zodbot> Current chairs: Rebecca_ mchua mwhitehe
15:59:16 <mchua> Rebecca_: Ok, cool - I'm ready to start anytime.
15:59:34 <mwhitehe> Is Phil with you or is he going to log in himself?
15:59:55 <Rebecca_> He's logging in himself
16:00:04 <mwhitehe> let's pause until he joins.
16:00:24 <Rebecca_> no laptop so he needs the desktops in the faculty area
16:00:38 <mchua> Is there anything in particular you'd like to accomplish today? I don't have a defined end-time (it's mostly that it's midnight here, so I'll probably be pretty sleepy in 2 hours or so ;) and I'm mostly here to listen and find out what you folks are trying to do - all I know is that mwhitehe pinged me last night and asked if there was a good time to talk.
16:00:57 <mchua> So that, plus reading the program description on your webpage, is all I have so far (and the brief conversations we had earlier about a kernel-based POSSE).
16:01:11 <Rebecca_> We would like some advice on developing our open source technologies program
16:01:20 <Rebecca_> we want of course all open source tools
16:01:30 <Rebecca_> but there are also good business practices that we want to capture
16:01:43 <Rebecca_> and I personally would be interested in knowing where to find solid faculty
16:02:07 <Rebecca_> the program is in its infancy and from what I am understanding is kinda rare
16:02:24 <Rebecca_> Phil Hartley made it as well - Welcome Phil!
16:02:30 <mchua> #chair Phil__
16:02:30 <zodbot> Current chairs: Phil__ Rebecca_ mchua mwhitehe
16:02:31 <Phil__> Hi
16:02:32 <mchua> Hello, Phil!
16:02:44 <Rebecca_> So we will have two Phil's today...
16:02:49 <Rebecca_> Nice!
16:03:06 <Phil__> I'm Phil. He's Phill!
16:03:14 <mchua> Ok, so waiting for one more?
16:03:27 <Rebecca_> Ahhh - always ok
16:03:30 <mwhitehe> I think it would be useful to refer UAT to someone with expertise in tying a revision control system like subversion (which they use) or git, and connecting it to a packaging system like RPM or apt (which I don't think they use).
16:03:32 <Rebecca_> Yes
16:03:56 <Rebecca_> And now we seem complete
16:04:10 <Rebecca_> WElcome Phill
16:04:14 <Phill_M> Hi!
16:04:14 <mchua> #chair Phill_M
16:04:14 <zodbot> Current chairs: Phil__ Phill_M Rebecca_ mchua mwhitehe
16:04:33 <Rebecca_> So, we can get started now.
16:04:48 <mchua> Sounds good. We've got logging on, so we'll have a record of this chat when we're done.
16:04:52 <mwhitehe> mchua:  what schools are out there that you personally know about how are doing something substantial in Open Source?
16:05:02 <mwhitehe> (who are doing)
16:05:36 <mchua> mwhitehe: Should we do introductions and an idea of what we want to accomplish during this meeting (and whether we have to stop at any particular time?)
16:05:40 <mchua> (but I'll answer your q in the meantime)
16:06:10 <mchua> In terms of schools who are teaching their students how to participate in open source communities, a lot of the professors on the TOS list are doing exactly that, or working towards it, so the schools they're from are the ones doing it.
16:06:26 <mwhitehe> yeah, introductions are a good idea. How about this order: mchua, Rebecca_ Phil, and myself. gregdek if he wants to.
16:06:44 <mchua> Oregon State University (OSU) and Seneca College have probably the most complete actual academic programs and have been doing it the longest (that I'm aware)
16:07:04 <mchua> Luis Villa's company, Kitware, works with a school as well, but the name of the school escapes me at themoment
16:07:08 <mchua> er, the moment
16:07:49 <mwhitehe> http://www.teachingopensource.org
16:08:12 <mwhitehe> mchua:  please introduce yourself
16:08:15 <mchua> Greg Hislop at Drexel, Heidi Ellis at Western New England, Matt Jadud at Allegheny College, Steve Jacobs at RIT, Titus Brown at Michigan State - I believe they're individual profs more than "our school has a notion of this as a course of study" though.
16:08:20 <mchua> But that's how it starts.
16:09:02 * quaid lurks, too
16:09:03 <mchua> I'm Mel Chua, from Red Hat's Community team; my background is in engineering and my work at Red Hat centers around building open source communities and teaching places about "the open source way" (tosw) of doing things
16:09:21 <mwhitehe> Rebecca_:  your turn
16:09:24 <Rebecca_> Introduction: Rebecca Whitehead, Dean of Academic Affairs at UAT, in charge of programs and program development, looking to enhance our baby open source technologies BS program and build it so its trong
16:09:32 <mchua> within my team, my particular focus is on education - mostly higher ed, although not constrained to pure CS/engr/tech (design, tech writing, etc. as well)
16:09:36 * mchua nods
16:09:37 <Rebecca_> err strong
16:10:01 <mwhitehe> Phil__: and you?
16:10:20 <Phill_M> Phill Miller, teaching CS courses at UAT for last 10 years. I am currently involved in a revision of our CS curriculum.
16:10:24 <mchua> (er, by "Luis Villa" I mean "Luis Ibanez" above - wrong Luis, the other one is from Mozilla)
16:11:07 <mwhitehe> Matthew W. I'm a consultant for Red Hat. I travel to customer sites doing whatever they want me to, usually with Open Source products.
16:11:14 <mwhitehe> gregdek: ?
16:11:31 <Phil__> Phil Hartley, been in the industry for a while. Cut my teeth on objects without Smalltalk back in the late 1980s and been doing development since. My industry focus was Java, so I've lots of experience in Open source
16:11:55 <Phil__> Started at UAT in January
16:12:13 <gregdek> Me: Former Red Hatter, helped build RH's education strategy, now CTO of an organization called ISKME where we focus on open content.
16:12:49 <mchua> gregdek == Greg DeKoenigsberg, for the record
16:12:53 <quaid> I'll do an intro since I'm lurking
16:12:56 <mwhitehe> gregdek: he understates himself. He's at an organization trying to improve the way education is done over our currently broken model.
16:13:08 <gregdek> Underpromise, overdeliver.  ;)
16:13:25 <mwhitehe> quaid:  go for it
16:13:27 <Rebecca_> Nice!  Thanks for taking the time to talk to us today.  And I agree about the promises Greg!
16:13:46 <quaid> Karsten Wade, another community leadership team member and long time (still) Red Hatter, I'm working on the textbook 'Practical Open Source Software Exploration' and the book 'The Open Source Way' http://theopensourceway.org/wiki
16:14:05 <Jefro> I can do a quick intro as well
16:14:29 <quaid> yep,do
16:14:33 <mchua> rrix: If you're around, heads-up, read backscroll, introduce self if you catch this in time.
16:15:01 <mchua> (Ryan Rix is a student at ASU who's deeply involved in the Fedora and KDE communities, and very interested in teaching open source development at the college level.)
16:15:07 <Jefro> I'm Jeff Osier-Mixon, working in industry at an embedded Linux software provider called MontaVista.  I have a strong interest in education & mentoring, I'm a mentor this year with GSOC, and I am co-hosting the LinuxCon education mini-summit with sdziallas who should actuallyg et the credit
16:15:19 <mwhitehe> gregdek: (give us good url for your current organization please? something with some meat on it)
16:15:48 <mwhitehe> rrix:  which 'ASU'? There are several of them.
16:15:50 <mchua> Phil__: Phill_M: Rebecca_ : Welcome to the TOS community, btw. ;) One of the reasons we try to hang out here and have our convos out in the open - you never quite know who's listening.
16:16:15 <mchua> mwhitehe: I *think* the Tempe one, actually... though I'm not 100% sure.
16:16:25 <Rebecca_> Indeed - I have been lurking on TOS for awhile - my email server is tired...
16:16:27 <gregdek> http://www.oercommons.org is our best known property.
16:16:36 <mwhitehe> Jefro:  drat, you missed our embedded systems conference call the other day.
16:16:45 <mwhitehe> Jefro:  we'll add you next time.
16:17:34 <Jefro> mwhitehe please do!
16:17:35 <mchua> mwhitehe: Better yet, start posting minutes of those calls to a publicly-archived lists if you can, so if you find other people like Jeff, you can easily get them to join in. ;)
16:17:59 <mchua> Ok, I think that's everyone - so, what are we trying to accomplish today?
16:18:19 <mchua> (I'll also apologize for being a little slower than usual on IRC today, since I'm in China at the moment and my connectivity is... less optimal than usual.)
16:18:40 <mwhitehe> that goes to the UAT staff. What questions do you have for these guys and what can you tell us about your program?
16:18:42 <quaid> mchua: chair me and I'll back you up in case of connectivity problems
16:19:02 <mchua> #chair quaid gregdek Jefro rrix
16:19:02 <zodbot> Current chairs: Jefro Phil__ Phill_M Rebecca_ gregdek mchua mwhitehe quaid rrix
16:19:12 <Rebecca_> Here is what I am here for... We have a baby open source BS degree in OPen Source Technologies and we are in catalog revisions
16:19:16 <mchua> #topic What questions do we have?
16:19:45 <mchua> Ok, by "baby" you mean... when did it start, when do the first students graduate, 4-year degree? how many students?
16:21:02 <mchua> (please keep asking the questions, I'll throw out questions about the questions inline and we can sort them out when we've all got 'em thrown out there.)
16:21:18 * Jeff_S sees name
16:21:47 <Phil__> Rebecca is having technical problems
16:22:04 <mchua> Jeff_S: Hey! Yeah, you should introduce yourself too (folks Jeff_S is from OSU)
16:22:15 <mchua> Phil__: No worries, did you or Phill_M have questions too?
16:22:27 <Phil__> They are coming. Sorry for the delay
16:22:32 <Phill_M> Our OS degree was just approved in Feb by the accreditors. We have one student enroled. The program starts this Sept.
16:23:02 <mchua> Which accreditation body?
16:23:06 <Rebecca__> HLC
16:23:12 <Rebecca__> Which is NCA
16:23:15 <Phill_M> HLC NCA accredidation
16:23:27 <Rebecca__> And it's working again - thank heavnes
16:23:39 <mchua> #link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Central_Association_of_Colleges_and_Schools
16:23:43 <mchua> for the non-academics amongst us :)
16:23:50 <Phil__> However, we're also introducing open source technologies in our other degree programs.  For example, our robotics students have already made contributions to OpenCV, amongst other projects
16:24:16 <mchua> Phil__: Is there a place where we can go to see the FOSS activity already happening at UAT?
16:24:18 <Phil__> Our intro class, CSC100 uses Python
16:24:50 <mwhitehe> yes, other instructors told me that they require the students to use Subversion to maintain their programming projects. I loved hearing that. and the Python too.
16:25:14 <Phil__> There isn't really a good place right now. We will work on it and let you know
16:25:19 <mchua> Awesome - version control puts you a huge leap ahead of the curve already.
16:25:24 <mchua> Sounds like you folks are Doing It Right. :)
16:25:34 <quaid> #link http://www.teachingopensource.org/index.php/Textbook_Project
16:26:05 <mchua> Phil__: Some examples from other schools...
16:26:05 <quaid> #link http://quaid.fedorapeople.org/TOS/Practical_Open_Source_Software_Exploration/html/
16:26:07 <mchua> #link http://cdot.senecac.on.ca/
16:26:08 <Phil__> All level 1 language classes are required to use our subversion server
16:26:12 <mchua> #link http://foss.rit.edu/
16:26:27 <mchua> #link http://osuosl.org/
16:26:42 <Phil__> I
16:26:55 <mchua> quaid: want to explain the links you just put up there?
16:27:04 <gregdek> Can I go to UAT?
16:27:15 <quaid> heh
16:27:27 <Phil__> It is our intention to introduce continuous integration in level 2 sometime in the next 2 semesters
16:27:52 <quaid> One thing we heard and noticed was that there is not a textbook that teaches open source participation
16:27:57 <quaid> a bit of a chicken and egg problem
16:28:17 <Phil__> We'll probably do it using tools like Maven and NMaven
16:28:17 <quaid> so last year we wrote what we called the 0.8 version, which I am now realizing is more like 0.1 in comparison to what is really needed in the classroom
16:28:20 <Phill_M> Rebecca's connection keeps dropping, so she is going to sit the rest of this convo out.
16:28:30 <quaid> Phill_M: we'll have a log for her at the end
16:28:49 <quaid> Dr.Tim Budd of OSU used the textbook last year, and
16:29:01 <quaid> based on that feedback plus some other learning we've done in the last year
16:29:07 <Jeff_S> quaid: 0.2? :)
16:29:31 <quaid> we are working on the next version to try to get the book from experimental to prototype that can be used to teach an entire CS101-type class for open source participation.
16:29:52 <quaid> so, to include chapters on licensing, culture, history, etc. as well as the practical how-to aspects already there.
16:30:01 <Phil__> And something like CruiseControl
16:30:30 <mwhitehe> quaid:  do you talk about the importance of IRC? I couldn't get my work done without it.
16:31:07 <quaid> mwhitehe: yes, but not to enough of a degree -- a chapter on communication, for example, is needed
16:31:17 <mchua> mwhitehe: It's actually the first day of POSSE - nearly all the 1st day, actually, is on IRC and communication tools & culture.
16:31:20 <mchua> Oh!
16:31:24 <mchua> #link http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE
16:31:30 <quaid> we're also taking the whole book through what we have learned about how Real Textbooks are made
16:31:51 <mchua> Professors' Open Source Summer Experience - a 1-week workshop we run for professors interested in doing exactly what you're working on, which is teaching their students how to contribute to FOSS communities
16:31:54 <quaid> mwhitehe: one of the goals of the textbook is to be useable in teaching POSSE, as well
16:32:08 <mchua> +1, so there'll be a chapter on exactly that when we're done with the next rev.
16:32:17 <Phil__> Our CS professors are firmly of the belief that we should be introducing Open Source wherever it is appropriate
16:32:35 <quaid> Phil__: that's great
16:32:39 <Jeff_S> happy to hear that
16:32:45 <mchua> +1000
16:32:59 <Phil__> And, of course, it's becoming appropriate a lot more!
16:33:59 <Phil__> So, by the time any of our CS students graduate, they will have a very firm grasp of Open Source
16:34:12 <mwhitehe> what are the projects that have been floated as candidates for college graduates to participate in?
16:34:49 <mchua> How will this program work with your existing CS programs/classes, and are there opportunities for non-CS majors to participate in FOSS (for instance, a student interested in UI design), out of curiosity?
16:35:32 <Jefro> I'd love to see open source integrated into a technical writing program as well
16:36:17 <mchua> Jefro: Me too!
16:36:51 <Phil__> Jefr
16:37:47 <Phil__> Jefro: How would you see technical writing being integrated into technical writing?
16:37:56 <Phil__> W
16:38:02 <Phil__> Actually, we are ta
16:38:33 <Phil__> Actually, we are talking to out Gen Ed people about a 300 level technical writing class
16:38:44 <Phil__> Our Gen Ed
16:39:10 <Jefro> There are many open source tools available to technical writers, but mostly I'd like to see student writers ally themselves with open source projects.  There are *many* FOSS projects that need better documentation.
16:39:50 <Phil__> Students will go through the intro class, a level 1 and level 2 language classes and then move to advanced software development classes
16:39:52 <Jefro> Getting out into the community is a very good thing for students (my opinion)
16:40:29 <quaid> basically
16:40:31 <Jefro> (Phil__ - sorry, I'm not sure what a 300-level class is)
16:40:39 <quaid> any discipline can be taught the open source way
16:40:59 <Phil__> At all these levels, we are introducing open source.  For example, I'm teaching Boost in both our C++ level 1 and 2 classes this semester
16:41:01 <quaid> that is, any discipline can get value from learning how to do things the open source way
16:41:42 <Phil__> At the advanced level, on the Java side, they will be introduced to Apache projects, Hibernate, Spring, Struts II, etc
16:42:40 <Phil__> 300 level means a class you would take in the 3rd year of a 4 year degree
16:42:54 <Jefro> Phil__ thanks
16:43:01 <quaid> I'm seeing a lot of using open source tools, which is important
16:43:14 <quaid> but the reason e.g. google started their summer of code
16:43:23 <quaid> is to get participation skills increased, for a numberof reasons
16:43:34 <quaid> e.g., those skills more closely resemble the real world work environment of developers
16:43:40 <quaid> even if their code isn't open source licensed.
16:43:55 <Phil__> Yep, that's our focus: real world development
16:44:01 <quaid> so, on the participation front, do e.g. Java advanced classes plan to contribute to thoseprojects?
16:44:34 <Phil__> We are also trying to make students less Microsoft focussed.  Not that Microsoft is bad.. Just that they need to know what else is going on
16:45:01 <Phil__> So we're getting them to use Eclipse as an IDE, for example
16:45:49 <Jefro> Phil__ excellent - would be good to discuss that Eclipse itself is also an open-source project with its own community, show the levels of involvement possible
16:46:11 <mchua> +1
16:46:12 <mchua> A lot of schools talk about learning how to learn, and learning technologies and techniques - and how to learn new ones - is incredibly important. Community participation skills are also just as important, though, because they are a source and environment for much of this learning later on. That's what quaid and myself have been focusing on a lot lately.
16:46:17 <mchua> We can't teach students how to write good code - as professors, you're experts in that - but we do know how communities work, and what skills and paradigms new participants need to be able to take advantage of them (including building them around their own projects).
16:46:19 <Phil__> We focus on cross compilation in our C++ classes, as another example
16:46:25 <mchua> Nice!
16:46:31 <Jefro> Phil__ !! +100
16:46:48 <Jefro> remind me to ask you about platforms later :)
16:47:16 <Phil__> Our current parallel programming class uses CUDA on a cluster of Linux servers
16:47:52 <Phil__> Our attitude is that Open Source is just a way of life these days
16:48:32 <Jefro> That is very true in industry
16:49:07 <mwhitehe> So you've got a lot of good stuff underway. What is UAT lacking in, that these guys might help with?
16:49:14 <Phil__> mchua: Our level I language classes focus on the language concepts.  But our level II classes focus on the craft of programming
16:49:27 <Phil__> We have a huge focus, for example, on coding standards
16:49:33 <mchua> Excellent.
16:50:22 <Phil__> We're trying to teach students that you can still get fired if you write code that works.  It's just not good enough these days. You have to write maintainable code
16:50:33 <Jefro> (if only that were true)
16:51:35 <Phil__> Giving students access to Open Source projects will only help us emphasize these concepts even further
16:51:42 * mchua nods
16:52:13 <mchua> The open source program is separate from the CS degree program, or a redesign of it, or a parallel track, or a "flavor" option, or... how does that work?
16:52:29 <mchua> And yes, to echo mwhitehe's question - what is it that you're looking for help with? What questions do you have that we can answer?
16:52:44 <Phill_M> Our OS degree is more of a flavor option.
16:53:05 <Phill_M> Becasue we believe that OS is just too imporatant to ignore in any CS degree.
16:53:18 <Phil__> We will certainly encourage all of our students in any degree program to choose a "big project" that would involve participation and contribution to an Open Source project
16:53:55 <Jefro> What can industry do to help academia in this regard?  One thing that has occurred to me from time to time is visiting talks & direct mentorship, but in my experience there is a limited interest by professionals in that sort of involvement.
16:54:16 <Phil__> I don't think we have a whole lot of questions.  I think we feel like we're on the same page.  Is that a valid assumption?
16:54:38 <Jefro> paulproteus' project http://openhatch.org is also a very positive help - providing bite-size bugs for students to tackle
16:54:53 <Jefro> Phil__ that definitely seems to be the case, but I think you guys are way ahead of the curve
16:55:16 <Phil__> UAT has a Tech Forum annually. THis year it is in November
16:55:33 <Phil__> If you would like to speak, we'd be happy to get you on the list!
16:56:02 <quaid> Jefro: one thing to be aware of is that INDUSTRY and ACADEMIA have years of using interfaces to each other that are not really the open source way
16:56:09 <Phill_M> I do have one question. We have had the topic of open source culture come up in some of our discussions. Is this something that you think we should dedicate course time to?
16:56:24 <quaid> you ust
16:56:26 <quaid> must
16:56:39 <mchua> Phill_M: Absolutely. I've found a lot of students think the only thing needed to participate in FOSS was sheer tech skill alone
16:56:39 <Phil__> As in a whole 15 week semester?
16:56:48 <mchua> which usually leads in one of two directoins:
16:57:18 <mchua> either (1) they think they're "not good enough" and don't even start participating in a community - too afraid to speak up - because they're underconfident about their tech skills, where in fact that participation is the *best* way to rapidly improve them
16:57:28 <mchua> (just like speaking a foreign language in immersion will help you learn that language)
16:57:29 <quaid> Phil__: perhaps more of someting that is included at all levels -- how such-and-such is done in the open source culture, the differences between e.g. C++ and Java cultures, etc.
16:57:46 <mwhitehe> (sorry, dropped)
16:58:05 <mchua> or (2) they come in as "code cowboys" thinking that Superior Code Ability will make everybody automatically realize that they are Smart and their solution is Way Better and then get surprised when nobody listens or picks up on it, and their work doesn't get the buy-in or help or adoption it could
16:58:28 <Phil__> quaid: Thats my point.  We're not just teaching Open Source technical detail, we're also teaching the culture as we go
16:58:29 <gregdek> The "learning a language" metaphor is worth repeating, loudly and frequently.
16:59:01 <Phil__> We're also trying to knock the arrogance out of students........
16:59:03 <Jefro> definitely.  community participation is a key skill.
16:59:23 <mchua> Phil__: Having students reflect on that (very different set of!) cultures they're being exposed to is also key, since sometimes we don't realize what we're looking at until we're forced to step back and think about it, and a light turns on.
16:59:41 <Phil__> mchua: Agreed
16:59:43 <mchua> So having *some* course components explicitly pointing out "hey, yes, there is a culture here, and we *are* learning it" is, imo, vita.
16:59:47 <mchua> vital.
17:00:06 <mchua> Phil__: Some students need arrogance knocked out of them, some need confidence knocked into them, but yes. :)
17:00:16 <Phill_M> So, would you recomend a course that deals specifically with open source culture, or a more distributed approach in which we just embed these concepts in other courses.
17:00:40 <mchua> Phill_M: So to the question of "should we dedicate course time?" - yes, and I think either approach would work - *but* it'll only work alongside an actual immersion experience
17:00:46 <Phil__> mchua: Kicking them in the ass while encouraging them at the same time
17:01:01 <mwhitehe> mchua:  you may not know this, but UAT teaches a lot of things culturally related. They have a semester long class in "Social Engineering". The students do some wicked cool/funny social engineering for credit. That's definitely related to culture. You have to understand culture to get what you want in a social hack.
17:01:07 <mchua> i.e. you can't read a book on FOSS culture and then say "yes, now I understand it!" - it's something you have to experience to understand, like any culture.
17:01:13 <mchua> mwhitehe: EXCELLENT
17:01:24 <mchua> mwhitehe: please tell me that's required of all engineers
17:02:44 <mwhitehe> so teaching 'social engineering' within an OSS community really should just be a variation on the existing theme.
17:02:54 <mchua> mwhitehe: +1
17:02:57 <Phil__> So let me see if I get this, we've been talking about a separate open source culture class
17:03:27 <Phil__> But what you're saying Mel is that we should teach this alongside an immersion experience
17:03:30 <Phil__> Correct?
17:03:40 <Jefro> I vote for both
17:03:43 * gregdek . oO { i sure hope that someone can write an article for opensource.com about UAT }
17:04:37 <Phil__> We'll tell our marketing people.  They're sure to come up with something.  :-)
17:04:52 <mchua> Phil__: Yep, I'd suggest an immersion experience as either a pre or co requisite.
17:05:43 <Jefro> mchua +1.  similar to exposure to real kids in education classes (did that).
17:07:05 * mchua has been around curriculum design for a while - was on the committee that did the revision for the whole-college curriculum of my alma mater a few years ago, so is used to thinking about dependencies/how classes fit together
17:07:15 <Jefro> I really like the idea of apprenticeship as well, and FOSS projects can be a good way to do that.  turning the 20th century traditional academia/industry relationship on its ear - apprenticeship is very 19th century and much more immersive.
17:08:43 <quaid> OK, what I see so far:
17:08:47 <mchua> FOSS participation *is* apprenticeship - thousands of small ones pieced together over the weeks and years, along with longer and slightly more formal ones that come along once in a while.
17:08:52 <Phil__> We've been reworking our whole CS curriculum for our 5 degree programs since January
17:09:00 <quaid> * existing CS classes teach OSS tools and processes and immersion (to varying degrees)
17:09:20 <mchua> Phil__: Ok, so you're still in the middle of that then :) any expected target date for that revision?
17:09:31 <quaid> * a new program is an Open Source-titled degree,which is really a flavor  in the overall CS program.
17:09:36 <Phil__> Open Source a techno,ogees, Advacing Computer Science, enterprise software DEEvlopment,
17:10:04 <Phill_M> We have to turn over materials for the 2011-2013 catalog in Sept.
17:10:12 <quaid> * existing course materials cover most of what the Open Source degree needs
17:10:32 <quaid> * there may still be additional courses to define, such as a culture class
17:11:04 <quaid> anything else?
17:11:20 <Phil__> That was meant to be: Open Source Technologies, Advancing Computer Science, Enterprise Software Development, Artificial Life and Robotics and Embedded Systems
17:11:57 * mchua thinks the UAT folks should introduce themselves and their program to the TOS list, and send links to everything they've mentioned here today (classes, etc - visibility into the work already going on, how to participate, open questions, etc)
17:12:05 <quaid> +1
17:12:12 <Jefro> ++
17:12:12 <Phil__> Agreed
17:12:34 <Jefro> are you guys coming to LinuxCon next week by any chance?
17:12:48 <Phil__> I think we should write a small paper on what we,re up to
17:13:09 <mchua> One of the challenges - and questions - is how to run an *academic program* as an open source project - practicing what you teach, since FOSS methodologies and culture go far beyond the simple availability of source code. ;)
17:13:25 <Phil__> Sorry, next to last week of the semester. As well as talking about this stuff, we have to teach it too!
17:13:57 * mchua grins
17:14:13 <Jefro> mchua that is a heck of an idea
17:14:15 * mchua recalls the teaching crunch at end-of-term
17:14:19 <mchua> and then there's grading, etc...
17:14:27 <mchua> Best of luck with that, Phil__ and Phill_M.
17:14:35 <quaid> Jefro: yeah, we're calling that idea "academic source" :)
17:14:41 * quaid has to run
17:14:45 <mchua> Jefro: Yep, I'm working with a school in Pakistan that's trying to do exactly the same thing.
17:15:08 <mchua> They're even earlier-stage - first students arrive to prototype the curriculum in 2011, classes formally start 2012.
17:16:00 <mchua> Anyhoo... it's starting to get late here, shall we try to wrap up in the next 15 m?
17:16:15 <Jefro> mchua - definitely, I have a meeting in 15 m
17:16:22 <Jefro> mchua re FOSS participation is mentorship - true, though often that apprenticeship is completely driven by the student/participant.  I'd like to see more of it being driven by mentors, but that is a mindset to change from within FOSS communities.  Not all of them abide by the same culture.
17:16:37 <Phil__> Let me emphasize, we're doing this stuff now
17:17:06 <Phil__> Anything else?
17:17:30 <Jefro> Phil__ it sounds like you guys are definitely on the right track.  I'd like to see industry & FOSS community at large recognize what you are doing and respond positively.
17:17:40 <Phill_M> My head is full of ideas. Thank you for the great feedback and input. This was very valuable to us.
17:17:52 <Phil__> Also thanks from me!
17:18:17 <Jefro> Thanks from me as well - great to see what you are doing
17:18:45 <Phil__> Thanks again to everyone.  See you again soon
17:18:47 <mchua> Echoing Jefro - it sounds like you are on the right track, there are opportunities to build the community-participation part of the program
17:19:02 <Phill_M> Well, bye for now, but I am sure that I will pop back in here from time to time :)
17:19:08 <mchua> One thing that might be of interest is that rrix is working on organizing a POSSE workshop in Arizona next summer
17:19:12 <Jefro> iz the bot still running?
17:19:15 <mchua> Jefro: it is.
17:19:36 <mchua> Phill_M: Which you and Phil and Rebecca, and any other folks from UAT, would be very welcome to attend
17:19:38 <Jefro> cool - I wanted to ask Phil__ bout their technology conference in November
17:19:43 * mchua nods
17:20:25 <Phill_M> I will let Rebecca know about the POSSE workshop.
17:20:43 <Phill_M> http://www.uat.edu/techforum/
17:20:50 <Jefro> also, my company has an office in Tempe, I'll try to wangle a visit sometime & if so will stop in
17:20:54 <Jefro> Phill_M thanks! looking
17:20:55 <mchua> Phill_M: And please do get everyone to introduce themselves to TOS - http://teachingopensource.org/mailman/listinfo/tos
17:21:17 <mchua> Phill_M: it's a great place to get more of this sort of feedback from other professors and institutions doing the same thing... it's why this group exists in the first place.
17:21:21 <mchua> The community of practice for teaching open source.
17:21:35 <Phill_M> I'll remind everyone to introduce at TOS.
17:21:45 <mchua> Thanks, Phill_M.
17:21:57 <mchua> That's all I had - anyone else?
17:22:26 <mwhitehe> I'm good.
17:23:22 <mchua> Ok, I'll leave the logs open for a few more minutes just in case folks have closing remarks, but I think we're good.
17:23:25 <mchua> Thanks everyone!
17:25:51 <mchua> I'll send these notes to the list, too.
17:25:53 <mchua> #endmeeting