15:04:21 <stickster> #startmeeting Websites - New USB writer work
15:04:21 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Sep  7 15:04:21 2016 UTC.  The chair is stickster. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:04:21 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:04:21 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'websites_-_new_usb_writer_work'
15:04:25 <stickster> #meetingname websites
15:04:25 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'websites'
15:04:40 <stickster> #topic Roll call
15:04:43 <stickster> .hello pfrields
15:04:44 <zodbot> stickster: pfrields 'Paul W. Frields' <stickster@gmail.com>
15:04:47 <robyduck> .hello robyduck
15:04:48 <zodbot> robyduck: robyduck 'Robert Mayr' <robyduck@gmail.com>
15:04:51 <mizmo> .hello duffy
15:04:54 <zodbot> mizmo: duffy 'Máirín Duffy' <fedora@linuxgrrl.com>
15:04:59 <stickster> #topic Background / Context
15:05:43 <stickster> #link https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-websites/ticket/384
15:05:49 <stickster> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/LUCasPrimaryDownloadable
15:06:16 <stickster> So I think the topic is known well to you guys already... There's a new USB writer (Linux USB Creator or LUC hereafter)
15:06:50 <mizmo> ah yes i looked at this abit, have a few q's on how it will work
15:07:07 <stickster> It's intended to be cross-platform and will be distributed for Mac and Windows too, rel-eng will be building it manually for F25 but in future plan is to have it automatically created for releases
15:07:10 <mizmo> is it the same as liveusb creator => fedora media writer?
15:07:32 <stickster> mizmo: Yes, one and the same
15:07:35 <stickster> #link http://developers.redhat.com/blog/2016/04/26/fedora-media-writer-the-fastest-way-to-create-live-usb-boot-media/
15:08:27 <robyduck> layout is totally different, it checks integrity automatically
15:08:44 <robyduck> no need to have the checksum files
15:08:47 <stickster> Yes, it's quite a change from the previous writer.
15:09:22 <mizmo> okay so the official name is gonna be linux USB creator now
15:09:40 <stickster> The goal is to give people this writer as the primary downloadable for Workstation
15:10:06 <stickster> mizmo: Well, sesivany is referring to it in the ticket as Fedora Media Writer so maybe I should too?
15:10:25 <robyduck> it is only for workastion right now, not for spins, labs or anything else
15:10:40 <robyduck> workstation*
15:10:40 <mizmo> stickster, whatever its called doesn't matter to me, just want the correct name for mockups /etc so we dont have an identity crisis
15:10:42 <stickster> robyduck: Right, those groups elected not to want it as a primary downloadable (which seems perfectly fine)
15:10:55 <stickster> LUC ==> FMW from here on out to avoid confusion with old 'liveusb-creator
15:10:57 <mizmo> i was trying to get an outreachy intern set up with fedora and we had a really hard time finding it bc we couldn't figure out what it was called
15:11:23 <mizmo> okay so lets say FMW
15:11:32 <stickster> #info the official name is Fedora Media Writer or FMW
15:11:34 <mizmo> are there mockups or binaries i could run to see how it looks?
15:11:45 <mizmo> im wondering for example can pre releases be downloaded using it?
15:12:07 <stickster> mizmo: I think the article http://developers.redhat.com/blog/2016/04/26/fedora-media-writer-the-fastest-way-to-create-live-usb-boot-media/ above has some screenshots, but it's currently downloadable and runnable from a copr I believe
15:12:35 * stickster notes it's unfortunately still using the "liveusb-creator" package name :-\
15:12:47 <mizmo> eek the icons its using for workstation are wrong too
15:12:51 <mizmo> see thru instead of white bg
15:12:53 <robyduck> mizmo: apparently yes, the workstation team wants to have it for Beta
15:13:35 <mizmo> robyduck, so how would that work? wouldnt that be a really confusing UX if you click on Fedora Workstation and it gives you a prerelease?
15:13:46 <mizmo> bc theres no warning about it, i would assume a shipped product rather than prereleased from this
15:14:11 <mizmo> or is the expectation that they would download a prerelease image, click on other OS, and load that in??
15:14:15 <mizmo> that's not a great experience either imho
15:14:30 <robyduck> mizmo: I have the same concerns as you
15:14:42 <robyduck> but I think it could also be, because it is new
15:14:46 <mizmo> does this update its catalog of media as new releases come out or does it have to be manually updated? (works with dnf on linux systems but i install this on windows, how do i get the latest images?)
15:15:13 <mizmo> i think placing it as the default download on the website maybe brings up user paths / experience questions that were maybe never raised before?
15:15:14 <robyduck> people come to the website and expect to get an ISO file to install from, but they get another software first
15:15:24 <stickster> mizmo: It relies on the websites information to pull the latest stable release, IIRC
15:15:33 <robyduck> there might be too many clicks and we could loose people
15:15:41 <robyduck> stickster: yeah
15:16:32 <mizmo> stickster, so it only does stable? and it doesn't tell ppl what versoin they are getting? (well, 6 pt gray on gray font i guess)
15:16:33 <stickster> The way I'd interpret it as a new user is it operates the same way as a download helper you find on other sites
15:17:27 <mizmo> but it has 2 images, and thats it right
15:17:40 <mizmo> or does other give you a menu of other opts to choose from
15:17:43 <mizmo> i guess i need to just run it
15:17:46 <stickster> mizmo: If you open the "..." vertical it also gives you other images from spins and labs
15:17:57 <stickster> mizmo: it's installable on F24 as "dnf install liveusb-creator'
15:17:58 <mizmo> i didnt even notice that....
15:18:09 <mizmo> i thought that was to drag the window larger
15:18:19 <stickster> That's not what I thought when I ran it
15:18:35 <stickster> I figured it was for settings or extra options, like I see on e.g. Android
15:18:50 * stickster is running it here to make sure he knows how it works
15:18:56 <mizmo> on android thats usually in the upper right corner not centered in the bottom of a very wide list item
15:19:06 <robyduck> right
15:19:11 <mizmo> i tohuhght i upgraded to f24 but i guess im on 23 still
15:19:21 * robyduck is also still on 23
15:19:44 <mizmo> https://copr.fedorainfracloud.org/coprs/mbriza/liveusb-creator/
15:20:02 <stickster> The same package is offered for F23
15:20:05 <stickster> https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/updates/?packages=liveusb-creator
15:20:14 <stickster> mizmo: No, you can install directly from standard repo now
15:20:19 <mizmo> oh ok
15:20:20 <mizmo> great
15:20:36 <robyduck> stickster: but you need F24 for that
15:20:37 <mizmo> i remember having a really rough time trying to get it working last time
15:20:38 <stickster> it's in F23 and F24 stable
15:21:03 <robyduck> For Fedora
15:21:05 <robyduck> sudo dnf install liveusb-creator
15:21:07 <robyduck> (Requires Fedora 24)
15:21:19 <stickster> Oh interesting -- didn't notice this before, the vertical ... "pulses" so it's inviting me to click which is cool
15:21:35 <stickster> and when I hover it says "Display additional Fedora flavors"
15:21:38 <stickster> That's nice
15:22:12 <mizmo> hm
15:22:17 <mizmo> so it shows spins and labs but no prerelease
15:22:47 <stickster> mizmo: Is the issue that if we have this done for Beta, it doesn't actually *offer* the Beta?
15:23:02 <mizmo> stickster, right, wouldn't that be really confusing?
15:23:10 <robyduck> and why they want it for beta then? This is too much confusing IMHO
15:23:11 <mizmo> we'd have to offer the beta iso + the live usb creator
15:23:30 <robyduck> mizmo: yes, we will show the ISO image on the right
15:23:32 <mizmo> which is ok i guess but an annoying transition in that we'd need a specific design for that and then have to change it for final
15:23:35 <robyduck> 64 nd 32 bit
15:24:03 <stickster> #idea It's confusing that the FMW doesn't offer the prerelease, but the proposal is to have the website done by Beta prerelease
15:24:33 <mizmo> unless they want it "done" and ready-to-go for final but not launched for beta
15:24:54 <robyduck> no they want to have it for beta
15:25:13 <stickster> mizmo: That's one way we could approach it -- i.e. have this testable by Beta in the working 'fmw*' branch
15:25:33 <robyduck> mizmo: stickster: I tried to work on this a bit and wrote it down in staging. We could see if the concept is something we can owrk out, or just throw it away.
15:25:45 <robyduck> https://stg.getfedora.org/en/workstation/prerelease/
15:25:57 <stickster> robyduck: Thanks for putting that up on stg! nice
15:26:05 <robyduck> when you click on the main download option on the top it gets you to the FMW part
15:26:49 <robyduck> the learn more could contain some instructions (I don't like to redirect people to a wiki, docs, or whatever) with a modal
15:26:56 <stickster> We might want to alter some of the text on the page, but I see what you did here robyduck
15:27:14 <robyduck> the grey background is just a placeholder, maybe we can do some nice background OS related
15:27:30 <robyduck> yeah, text is just to not write "lorem ipsum..."
15:27:32 <robyduck> :D
15:27:42 <stickster> Is it possible to autodetect OS and offer that by default? It would be a nice helper, and then we could link to the 3 OSes in case we got it wrong
15:27:51 <stickster> robyduck: right on :-)
15:28:25 <mizmo> so a few things (if its ok)
15:28:26 <robyduck> hmm, user agent you mean
15:28:26 <mizmo> I wouldn't actually refer to it as FMW on the website
15:28:27 <stickster> go mizmo
15:28:35 <mizmo> using acronyms like that i think isn't a good general practice
15:28:38 <stickster> mizmo: agreed -- keeping free of our own jargon
15:28:52 <stickster> Also I wouldn't be talking about "primary downloadable" here or anything like that
15:29:12 <stickster> like robyduck, it beats "lorem ipsum" but we can certainly come up with better text
15:29:25 <stickster> er, *like robyduck said
15:29:26 <robyduck> that would be your part stickster ;)
15:29:35 <stickster> lol yeah
15:29:54 <mizmo> maybe we could offer the auto detected OS one by default, and the three platform columns fade in if you click on 'looking for another version?'
15:29:54 <stickster> with you guys approving
15:29:54 <mizmo> i like the columns
15:29:55 <stickster> mizmo: ooo nice
15:29:58 <mizmo> but i think its too much to show it all up front
15:30:09 <mizmo> having the release milestones on the prerelease page is a great idea
15:30:17 <stickster> mizmo: like it would expand out / fade in if needed
15:30:20 <robyduck> probably too much, yes
15:30:21 <mizmo> exactly
15:31:15 <robyduck> not sure how exact the user agents work though
15:31:37 <stickster> robyduck: Yeah, we have to assume we can't get it 100% right
15:31:40 <mizmo> we don't have the link to "how to test prereleases" on here either, it's on the main DL page
15:31:49 <robyduck> and rememebr this is a static website
15:31:49 <mizmo> we should be open and upfront about it something like
15:32:10 <robyduck> you don't get anything dinamically
15:32:11 <mizmo> "We've detected you're using $OS. If this isn't what you're looking for, click here view all OS options."
15:32:34 <stickster> robyduck: Yeah, I was hoping Javascript would allow us to do what's needed here
15:33:11 * stickster knows nothing about that level of things
15:33:14 <robyduck> could be, but then we need to write the three columns anynway, for those who have JS disabled (are there still?)
15:33:25 <stickster> Oooh, I should have #topic'd already :-D
15:33:33 <stickster> #topic The nitty gritty
15:33:45 <stickster> robyduck: There may be, yes
15:34:03 <mizmo> robyduck, if js disabled then they just appear below and the link is an anchor link maybe?
15:34:52 <stickster> I think you guys are already ahead of me (in the best way) ;-) but what I was envisioning is that a "normal" user would see one button with a link that *probably* fits their OS, and a link they could click to open up the three OS options.  If they have JS disabled, they would just see the three OS options
15:35:18 <stickster> Am I roughtly talking about the same thing?
15:35:46 <mizmo> exactly
15:36:01 <robyduck> yes, I am thinking about the technical part. User agents for OS are given in various formats
15:36:22 <robyduck> and browsers use theur own format
15:36:39 <robyduck> also the strings might change
15:37:14 <mizmo> robyduck, i wouldn't do it based on the strings. how about feature checking with something like modernizr?
15:37:47 <mizmo> i just dont know if feature support is a great way to detect browser either
15:38:10 <robyduck> oh yes, that could work much better
15:38:29 <stickster> oh cool, thanks for the ref mizmo
15:38:39 <stickster> #idea Use modernizr for feature checking/OS matching
15:39:00 <mizmo> https://github.com/barisaydinoglu/Detectizr
15:39:09 <mizmo> http://baris.aydinoglu.info/Detectizr/
15:40:11 <stickster> #idea Use detectizr for OS matching
15:40:57 * robyduck needs to read this first, never used it
15:41:34 <stickster> #agreed A "normal" user would see one button with a link that *probably* fits their OS, and a link they could click to open up the three OS options.  If they have JS disabled, they would just see the three OS options
15:42:34 <stickster> So we probably want a good idea of "due date" here, since I think this would have to be tested... IIUC the QA team is prepared to help, but I also think it's easy enough for those of us working on it to contribute there too... we normally test our own sites :-)
15:42:59 * stickster takes adamw name in vain to see if he has input on the date
15:44:06 <mizmo> i can do a mockup if it would be helpful robyduck, and tighten up the text
15:44:26 <robyduck> sure, that woul be great
15:44:37 <robyduck> would*
15:44:40 <stickster> adamw: ^^ In thinking about deadline, as we noted above the FMW doesn't actually offer a prerelease... so rolling it out publicly at Beta might be really strange because people will only get the existing F24 release
15:45:02 <stickster> But it seems like we may indeed be able to have a stg.fp.o website operational by then
15:46:10 <mizmo> and going forward how do we ship prereleases of workstation
15:46:29 <mizmo> do we have ISO links? and then they can' tbe created with the live media creator? so anybody testing ws prereleases must use dd?
15:47:28 <stickster> mizmo: ISTM we would want to put direct ISO links in "Other Downloads" so people can get them if desired
15:47:46 <robyduck> exactly
15:48:22 <stickster> And maybe call them "Live ISO image file" with some small text above... "These are direct links to ISO format image files" or some such.
15:48:24 <mizmo> stickster, but then they have to use another tool to make them
15:48:37 <mizmo> bc FMW no longer provides any way to load in arbitrary live isos
15:48:38 <stickster> mizmo: Yes, I'm thinking specifically of people who for whatever reason don't want the FMW
15:48:49 <mizmo> wait
15:48:53 <mizmo> so i'm talking about prereleases
15:48:54 <stickster> mizmo: Sure it does, the third option on the dialog
15:48:57 <stickster> ohhh
15:49:03 <mizmo> for normal releases i think it'd make more sense to just have FMW and no iso link
15:49:17 <mizmo> stickster, oh it does ok
15:49:19 <mizmo> yeh
15:49:25 <mizmo> sorry i confused the custom OS with the ... thing
15:49:31 <stickster> yup yup gotcha
15:49:45 <stickster> Yeah, I think there's a way to say for prereleases "here's the tool, now grab a prerelease ISO"
15:50:09 <stickster> But... depends on whether we want to cobble that up in time for Beta in addition to the all-in-one final release page
15:50:25 <robyduck> really? no iso link for final?
15:50:38 <stickster> robyduck: I was talking about that above,
15:50:41 <stickster> so:
15:50:43 <mizmo> well maybe under other downloads
15:50:46 <stickster> for prereleases:
15:50:49 <mizmo> but not in the main content area
15:50:56 <robyduck> under other downloads, yes
15:51:07 <stickster> * offer the tool and ISOs as separate downloads, but both in the main area
15:51:08 <robyduck> no, on the right
15:51:10 <stickster> for final releases:
15:51:29 <stickster> * offer the tool itself (which downloads the final), and put ISOs in the Other Downloads where less needed
15:51:40 <stickster> does this make sense?
15:52:01 <stickster> (meaning both, did the idea make sense, and also, is it even a good one) :-)
15:52:07 <robyduck> I woul put the isos on the right also for prerelease
15:52:37 <robyduck> to have the main section as clean as possible
15:52:52 <mizmo> yeh but the problem with that then is for prerelease youre not actually offering the prerelease in the main section
15:52:54 <stickster> robyduck: and then say below the tool download, "Grab an ISO --> over there"?
15:53:19 <stickster> robyduck: I understand the cleanliness idea... but at the same time it looks to a casual user like you're giving them half of what they need
15:53:22 <mizmo> i could see putting the prerelease iso in both the main section and the other downloads sidebar (if youre using to going to other downloads for normal releases you might look there)
15:53:46 <mizmo> i think well probably also need some instructions on how to use the prerelease isos with FMW
15:53:59 <robyduck> mizmo: +1
15:54:31 <robyduck> i would use a modal for instructions, not all people need them
15:54:39 <mizmo> sounds good
15:54:50 <stickster> robyduck: so is that loading a separate HTML page in the modal for those instructions?
15:55:09 <robyduck> stickster: click on learn more
15:55:15 <robyduck> you see a modal
15:55:15 * stickster thinking it should be possible to write some easy instructinos that also show a screenshot or two if needed
15:55:29 <stickster> robyduck: understood -- just meaning, I could write up that page
15:55:34 <robyduck> you can put into it whatever you want
15:55:40 * stickster doesn't know how to write the modality part :-)
15:57:16 <mizmo> #action mizmo to mockup final release version of workstation DL page with FMW links
15:57:21 <robyduck> it's not a big thing
15:57:26 <mizmo> #action mizmo to mockup prerelease version of workstation DL page
15:57:33 <stickster> #idea have a modal for iso writing instructions (for when people download a separate image e.g. prerelease)
15:57:35 <mizmo> stickster, do you want that as an action item? :)
15:57:47 <stickster> mizmo: for sure
15:57:59 <stickster> #action stickster Write up instructions page for separate iso download
15:58:26 <stickster> robyduck: ^ I can just create that as something like workstation/prerelease/instructions.html?
15:58:28 <mizmo> i will try to have done by the end of today
15:58:36 <stickster> RAWK \m/
15:58:49 <mizmo> i think i have another meeting this afternoon but i still think its enough time
15:59:01 <stickster> robyduck: your initial start here was a super help btw.
15:59:08 <mizmo> robyduck++
15:59:08 <zodbot> mizmo: Karma for robyduck changed to 9 (for the f24 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
15:59:13 <stickster> robyduck++
15:59:22 <stickster> oops, no cookie parade
15:59:28 <stickster> mizmo++
15:59:28 <robyduck> stickster: https://pagure.io/fedora-websites/blob/fmw-test/f/getfedora.org/data/content/workstation/prerelease/index.html#_44
15:59:31 <mizmo> gosh i just had a random funny/notfunny idea
15:59:37 <mizmo> there used to be a computer virus in the way olden days
15:59:40 <stickster> PANDAS
15:59:44 <mizmo> where cookie monster appeared on your screen and ate your files
15:59:54 <mizmo> it would be funny to have cookie monster try to eat your fedora karma cookies
16:00:05 <mizmo> (but you should be able to get them back)
16:00:07 <robyduck> hahahahaha
16:00:11 <mizmo> then you get a badge for fighting cookie monster
16:00:17 <mizmo> it could be just a random thing
16:00:29 <mizmo> anyway
16:00:34 <stickster> lol
16:00:34 <robyduck> mizmo: fever?
16:00:35 * mizmo sees a lot of cookie monster these days o_O
16:00:42 * mizmo feels forehead
16:00:43 <robyduck> :D
16:00:44 <mizmo> lol
16:00:55 <stickster> robyduck: One other thing before we close out
16:01:04 <stickster> relrod is around to do some hours on Websites too
16:01:20 <robyduck> yeah, that's cool.
16:01:39 <stickster> robyduck: so I encourage you to either/both (1) hand him some maintenance tasks for Beta/Final; (2) hand him parts of this work for FMW
16:01:39 <robyduck> I'll work this out with his help
16:02:11 <robyduck> will do
16:02:18 <stickster> OK, are we good to go forward at this point?
16:02:29 <mizmo> +1
16:02:33 <robyduck> i think yes
16:02:58 <robyduck> thanks for this useful meeting
16:03:15 <mizmo> stickster++
16:03:15 <zodbot> mizmo: Karma for pfrields changed to 10 (for the f24 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
16:03:27 <robyduck> stickster++
16:03:44 <stickster> Thank you guys for being here!
16:03:46 <stickster> #endmeeting