15:00:44 #startmeeting 15:00:44 Meeting started Wed Sep 10 15:00:44 2014 UTC. The chair is jwb. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 15:00:44 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 15:00:44 #meetingname workstation 15:00:44 The meeting name has been set to 'workstation' 15:00:44 #meetingtopic Workstation WG meeting 15:00:44 #topic init 15:00:48 #chair juhp cwickert otaylor mclasen cschalle ryanlerch ltinkl jwb kalev 15:00:48 Current chairs: cschalle cwickert juhp jwb kalev ltinkl mclasen otaylor ryanlerch 15:00:55 hi everyone. who's around today? 15:01:02 hi 15:01:08 #chair juhp_ 15:01:08 Current chairs: cschalle cwickert juhp juhp_ jwb kalev ltinkl mclasen otaylor ryanlerch 15:01:09 * mclasen is here, cschalle is up in the air 15:01:14 * cwickert is here 15:01:31 #chair ryanlerch_ 15:01:31 Current chairs: cschalle cwickert juhp juhp_ jwb kalev ltinkl mclasen otaylor ryanlerch ryanlerch_ 15:01:41 i think ryan should be joining us today as well now that he's back from PTO 15:01:51 yeah, I saw him yesterday 15:01:52 * ryanlerch_ is indeed here! 15:01:55 yay 15:02:06 i'll give the others just a minute to join 15:02:07 brb 15:02:16 * satellit listening 15:04:13 anyone heard from otaylor? 15:04:47 kalev, around? 15:05:05 * mclasen goes to look for owen 15:05:09 mclasen, he's here 15:05:35 ok, let's get going. i'm sure kalev will show up at some point 15:05:40 #topic Alpha status 15:06:11 hello 15:06:14 so i tried the TC6 last week. the netinstall iso is DOA in a kvm guest as anaconda segfaults and never starts 15:06:28 the live iso boots fine though, and things appear to work as expected 15:06:42 i think satellit hit the same issue i did with the netinstall iso 15:06:51 satellit, did you file a bug for the "Pane is dead" thing? 15:07:09 I think there is one ...looking 15:07:24 there is a bug on qa radar 15:07:29 ok 15:07:48 afaik, that is specific to the workstation netinstall iso, but not really something the WG deals with 15:07:59 .bug 1139015 15:08:01 juhp_: Bug 1139015 F21 Alpha TC6 network install fails with crash, hang, reboot or "pane is dead" - caused by anaconda segfault - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/1139015 15:08:13 juhp_, thanks! 15:08:25 anyone have any other status on the Alpha at this point? 15:08:25 though I heard Live installer crashes in some cases too 15:08:32 we had a meeting with sgallagh and bcl and dgilmore a few days ago how to make netinstall work 15:08:39 * mclasen did 2 live installs yesterday which both worked fine 15:09:06 it turned out that anaconda folks had no idea that releng was planning on shipping different install trees for each product 15:09:26 but I think everybody should be on the same page now and hopefully the installer issues get resolved soon 15:09:32 kalev, yeah... i recall that conversation 15:10:04 another alpha thing is that yesterday the .91 update got pushed to stable 15:10:17 and should appear in the next compose, whenever that is going to be 15:10:24 * satellit__e only for server netinstall....https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1139015 15:10:39 #info gnome .91 update pushed to stable. should be in next compose 15:10:57 aha 15:10:58 of course, .92 is coming next week and if the alpha gets postponed any more 15:11:10 we'll soon have a .92 update to try to get in alpha :) 15:11:32 I think it's very valuable to have latest code tested in alpha 15:11:41 .91 in workstation live (todays) koji 15:11:43 otherwise it's just a waste of resources to retest old bugs again and again 15:11:58 * satellit f22 rawhide 15:12:01 kalev, yeah. depends on the freeze exception stuff though 15:12:08 * kalev nods. 15:12:16 true but of course also good to get alpha out of the door :) 15:12:28 of course, best would be to get it out as fast as possible 15:12:37 yes 15:12:44 but if it gets delayed anyway, should probably try and make sure it includes the things we need tested 15:12:53 true 15:12:54 the .92 will have a bunch of bug fixes that came out of the gnome testday from a while back 15:13:02 kalev, are there draft release notes anywhere for upstream GNOME that we can use to highlight new features that we get in the alpha from GNOME? 15:13:04 nice 15:13:15 #info .92 update will contain bugfixes that came out of the GNOME test day 15:13:19 ryanlerch_: I belive aday has been working on release notes, can you ask him? 15:13:33 kalev, ack, will reach out to aday 15:13:35 ryanlerch_, we also have the notes cschalle sent to the list 15:13:41 which aren't GNOME specific 15:14:08 ok, anything else for Alpha? seems we're kind of waiting on releng/anaconda 15:14:20 jwb, okies, will use those too. I'm planning on doing 1 or more posts for the magazine focusing on workstation 15:14:21 nothing more from me 15:14:32 ryanlerch_, great 15:14:38 ok, let's move on 15:14:43 #topic QT/KDE 15:14:48 two parts to this one 15:15:10 1) the QT theming. did we actually get anything related to this done for Alpha? if not, is it on target for Beta? 15:15:14 2) KDE itself 15:15:40 does anyone have an update on 1? if not, i can try and figure it out later today 15:15:50 I think Christian had someone working on 1, but he switched teams or something? 15:16:00 yeah, that's the last i recall 15:16:02 was trying to get a hold of mbriza earlier to get an update from him 15:16:21 mclasen, want to keep following up therE? 15:17:42 #action jwb or mclasen to follow up on QT theming 15:17:49 ok, KDE itself 15:17:50 yes, I'll take that 15:17:53 mclasen, thanks 15:18:09 so i talked to two different KDE sig members about KDE and workstation 15:18:30 it seems the KDE SIG overall would rather work on their Plasma product efforts 15:18:56 but there is at least one member that wishes to figure out how best to include KDE in workstation, which is something we've said several times was desired 15:19:25 the question then becomes, how is the best way and is it something that's realistic for F21? 15:20:04 i know there was discussion on having it as something that would be installed under software-installer, but that requires one to boot into GNOME first 15:20:16 and then use GDM on the next boot to boot into KDE 15:20:18 I think the plan was all along to have a way to install minimal KDE from the workstation software installer 15:20:19 jwb: I doubt having anythign GNOME Software (if that was desired) is feasible for F21 - so beyond that it's a question of making 'yum groupinstall @kde' work 15:20:54 putting 'other desktops' in the app installer met with quite some resistance from the designers, too 15:21:20 perhaps net install might be an option or Live Spin? 15:21:27 mclasen, well... unless we install it by default how else would we expect someone to get it in a non-command line fashion? 15:21:54 juhp_, for F21 there will still be the normal KDE spin. but right now, we aren't doing anything at all for KDE within workstation itself 15:22:02 sure 15:22:08 jwb: I'm not sure having to log into gnome should be a big deal - the user already saw GNOME in the installer, and I think we're pretty clear that Fedora Workstation as a product always has GDM active and GNOME installed 15:22:12 jwb, true 15:22:23 the status of this task in the workstation task list is 'needs design' 15:22:45 otaylor, sure. i'm not arguing against that. 15:22:58 it should be rather easy to do from the software installer implementation point of view, once we've got designs 15:23:13 for F22? 15:23:17 so, does the WG think it's worthwhile for F21 to try installing KDE via yum and seeing how it works? 15:23:25 of course, we'll run into issues like if we should install 2 file managers and 2 system settings apps and so on 15:23:42 juhp_, yes, i think a more integrated way is probably pushed off to F22 at the earliest at this point 15:23:59 having it in Software is the most logical place to have it, IMHO, if we have the option... 15:24:18 not sure where else it would go, TBH 15:24:25 ryanlerch_, me either 15:24:34 aday would be a good person to discuss the designs with, if anyone has ideas how to put it there 15:24:46 but for F22, too late for F21 at this point 15:25:30 ryanlerch_: partof the concern was that it kinda muddies the story of software as an _application installer_ 15:25:43 and part of the concern was that it would not make kde people happy anyway 15:25:48 unless you could do it from GDM, i.e. you click the KDE option from the session chooser, and it installs -- though that is a clunky idea (just a thought) 15:26:14 interesting idea 15:27:06 mclasen, at this point i don't believe "making the KDE people happy" is the goal. it would be nice if that is possible, but we need to look at this from a workstation perspective 15:27:37 I think 'make qt applications run and feel great' is more important than 'offer kde as an alternative' 15:27:54 i agree it's the first priority 15:28:02 mclasen, agreed 15:28:05 at the same time, we've also said KDE should be a blocking desktop 15:28:15 so what does that mean for workstation? 15:28:39 either we're backing off of that for f21 and relying on the KDE spin to fulfill the blocking goal, or we need to actually try some things 15:29:17 sure, I guess being blocking means we need to install it and do some qa on it ? 15:29:23 so best bet currently is groupinstall? 15:29:30 juhp_, seems so 15:29:38 mclasen, sure 15:29:57 anyone want to tackle that? 15:30:38 i can ask ltinkl and maybe rdieter to try as well 15:30:43 I can have go at it - though I am not a kde user myself 15:30:50 juhp_, thanks, sounds good 15:31:12 jwb, but yeah testers certainly welcome 15:31:16 more ^ 15:31:19 #info integrated way of installing KDE is out of scope for F21. groupinstall likely the best option 15:31:31 apologies if this has been covered in my time off, but do we have a set of QT apps identified to "test" the QT theming against? 15:31:35 #action juhp_ to try KDE install on Workstation and see how it does. more testers welcome 15:32:00 ryanlerch_, we do not as far as i know. that would be a good thing to figure out with mclasen and whoever is doing the theme work 15:34:05 ok, anything else on this? i think we covered the main things i wanted to 15:34:08 /me will test in Workstation install.... 15:34:17 satellit, wonderful, thanks! 15:34:21 cool 15:34:26 moving on 15:34:30 #topic UX testing 15:34:47 * satellit this is Virtualbox but have HD install too 15:35:00 so a few weeks ago, mizmo asked if the WG was interested in any kind of formal UX testing. i think ryanlerch_ is also interested in this 15:35:03 true ryanlerch_ ? 15:36:09 jwb, definietly interested -- the big thing here is the workstation itself is such a broad thing to test -- any ideas on areas we want to focus on? 15:36:44 maybe some things relevant to 'developers' ? 15:36:50 software installer and how it integrates with the workstation is probably a good one... 15:36:53 I'm not a Workstation member, but perhaps we should focus in the short-term on whether key developer tasks are discoverable? 15:37:04 (WG member, I mean) 15:37:13 thats what I meant, basically 15:37:26 As in, can a user who wants to start doing Ruby development figure out how to do it without resorting to a Google HOWTO? 15:37:29 langdon gave a good presentation on some of the typical developer "types" he's seen. maybe review that again and do some testing around those? 15:37:55 * sgallagh nods 15:38:00 'start a github project using ruby' or 'set up a development env for this preexisting project with eclipse' 15:38:06 langdon is sitting next to me, he is just about to jump in... 15:38:21 mclasen: Perhaps both 15:38:48 jwb, that sounds like a good starting point 15:38:48 yeah, I just meant those to be examples of the kind of task that might be interesting to give to users 15:40:16 * jwb wonders if langdon is going to say anything 15:40:34 jwb: Strangely, I think that may be the first time in history that this particular sentence has come up :)P 15:40:41 heh 15:40:49 harsh 15:41:10 really its just "I agree: 15:41:20 ryanlerch_, mizmo might not have seen the meeting invite, and even if she did it was probably confusing because i had the wrong date. can you follow up with her on this? 15:41:28 * ryanlerch_ is happy to work on this this week w mo and langdon to try to get some initial test plans done... 15:41:35 awesome 15:41:52 i think from a WG perspective, this will really help us fix things that are highlighted as confusing or missing 15:41:58 even a little bit of testing will be better than none :) 15:42:06 the important thing for us is to actually listen. 15:42:28 #action ryanlerch_ to work with langdon and mizmo on intial developer focused UX testing plans 15:42:29 * langdon forgot his tablet keyboard today 15:42:40 i'll also review the testing that has been done recently upstream in GNOME to try to avoid testing a lot of the same stuff 15:42:47 ryanlerch_, ah, good idea 15:43:12 ryanlerch_: although conflicts may be interesting... 15:43:26 conflicts would be good to know about, yes 15:44:08 its more that there is *so much* that could be tested, id rather cover stuff that hasnt been touched :) 15:44:35 heh, fair 15:44:43 anything else on this? 15:44:45 ryanlerch_: yeah.. its a balance 15:44:46 you could look at boxes with the angle of developer use of vms, e.g 15:45:06 mclasen, yeah, great idea. i know every time i've tried to use it, i wind up going back to virt-manager 15:45:17 (note: i haven't tried the F21 version yet) 15:45:31 me too to be honest 15:45:32 mclasen: any output from our boxes convo? 15:46:13 * satellit boxes worked for me f21 workstation ; installed SoaS fine 15:46:53 langon: sure, I think user testing would basically be an exploration of that discussion 15:47:18 langon: also, you should check out boxes in 3.14 - a bunch of feature work has landed late 15:47:38 ahh cool 15:47:53 ok, let's move on if there's nothing else major left for UX testing? 15:48:15 langdon: not to mention that I got you your off switch for terminal shortcuts... 15:48:28 #topic Task list review 15:48:33 #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Workstation/Tasklist 15:48:51 ok, i just wanted to briefly look at the F21 items here and figure out if anything is incorrect 15:48:51 mclasen: :) 15:49:14 I've done a bunch of shuffling on that task list last week 15:49:16 looking it over, it seems the 'Optimus' and 'Terminal - long-running job notification' items might need to be pushed out to F22 15:49:38 yeah, whats currently still under f21 and not marked as done will be f22 material 15:49:52 with the exception of wayland keyboard layouts - still trying to get that landed 15:49:57 and possibly the qt theming work 15:50:06 once I get some status on that 15:50:24 mclasen, for the items that have posted patches or 'in progress', are those likely to land in 3.14? 15:50:39 much of the terminal tasks is blocking on getting upstream buy-in for those changes 15:50:57 so best to move them to F22 and move them back for F21 if they make it in? 15:51:02 getting those changes landed has been tough, and will continue to be so 15:51:15 we keep trying, but yeah - f22 at this point, I'm afraid 15:51:20 ok 15:51:39 and i think the 'better app data' item is fairly well along for f21, right? 15:51:58 maybe not 100% complete, but enough that it's worth keeping in the f21 list 15:52:05 yep, we should have pretty good coverage at this point 15:52:21 i'm still plugging away at getting the appdata stuff -- its currently sitting at 36% coverage, but have a bunch in branches that i need to finalize and merge. 15:52:41 my personal goal is to get it up near 50% or better 15:52:51 ryanlerch_, do you think that's feasible in the next few weeks? 15:53:11 I didn't move that task to 'green DONE' because it is an ongoing effort 15:53:16 yeah 15:53:28 we could split it into milestones, as you suggest and say '50% in f21' 15:53:29 jwb, maybe ask me next week :) i havent really checked the status too deeply since getting back 15:53:41 ryanlerch_, heh, ok. will follow up later 15:54:00 #action jwb to move some unlanded items to F22 list in wiki 15:54:09 we do have a few good contributors that have been plugging away at it since i was gone, so that is good 15:54:27 is this list used for some kind of "marketing" or just internal? 15:54:37 drago01, internal mostly 15:54:42 'this list' being the tasks ? 15:54:47 yes 15:55:10 it started as an internal tracking page for our desktop team - to keep on top of who does what and why 15:55:16 ok 15:55:21 so, not marketing 15:55:28 drago01: although there was some discussion of using it as mktg to 15:55:49 * langdon arrgghhh too 15:56:07 langdon, ? 15:56:55 langdon, heh 15:57:38 so.. like to share with the community what was "new and cool" in wkstn.. discussion with cshaller some time ago 15:58:11 ok.. also me on ryans lappy 15:58:14 oh 15:58:24 yeah, sorry i was confused by the arggh 15:58:30 ha 15:58:31 sorry 15:58:38 thought you were upset about the mktg thing :) 15:58:43 ok. jwb so no explanation reqd? 15:58:46 no 15:58:50 i'm good now 15:59:06 ok, i think that covered what i wanted to cover today for this 15:59:10 jwb, cool and sorry for confusion.. 15:59:24 anyone have anything else on the task list, or another item? 15:59:51 ! 16:00:02 cwickert, go ahead 16:00:04 I'd like to quickly talk about the media for ambassadors 16:00:16 in the past we had one media, the so called multi desktop DVD 16:00:25 #topic media 16:00:34 dual.arch with GNOME/Live, KDE, Xfce and LXDE 16:00:38 and SOAS I think 16:00:55 anyway, for F21 I would like us to have a separate workstation media 16:01:12 because we really want the world to know we are doing something different this time 16:01:33 do you all agree and are you fine with having it dual-arch? 16:01:35 as far as i know, that multi DVD thing was made by someone that wasn't rel-eng. was always confusing 16:01:49 i'm fine with it being dual-arch workstation specific 16:02:11 cwickert: Is it going to be clear that you are supposed to install x86_64 unless you know better? 16:02:21 jwb: the iso was made by dgilmore and rel-end has an SOP for it 16:02:47 otaylor: isolinux will automatically boot x86_64 if the CPU supports it 16:03:02 oh, that's actually pretty neat 16:03:13 otaylor: and we can still define a default for computers where the autodetection fails 16:03:25 so we could set the default to x86_64 16:03:43 cwickert: So basically you get x86_64 unless you choose something differnt at the isolinux prompt? 16:03:50 i think that is how it works, yes 16:04:08 otaylor: yes, and we can also change the menu order to get x86_64 at the top 16:04:22 so I take this as x86_64 by default... 16:04:33 cwickert: I *dfintely* don't think people should get penalized for hitting return in isolinux because of impatience :-) 16:04:44 :) 16:04:51 the basic fact remains that you're going to distribute something that is not the qa'ed product, but some mashup 16:05:16 32 bit insnt QAed? 16:05:22 ryanlerch_, he means the iso itself 16:05:34 QA works with the official images. this isn't what they test with 16:05:36 mclasen: well, that is not quite correct. it is composed of ISOs that are already QA'ed and there are some test cases for the isolinux stuff 16:06:14 we have used 8 GB USB to test in past 16:06:33 cwickert: it uses both grub and isolinux afaik, so it works with secureboot 16:06:36 ah so the multi-arch iso isnt tested -- got it now 16:07:19 ryanlerch_: the isos it consists of are tested, plus we test all the entries boot. 16:07:29 ryanlerch_: its created after a final release is declared gold 16:08:00 there is testing done to make sure all the boot options work 16:08:03 well, we could just say screw i686 16:08:24 well it seems a positive thing for us that the Ambassadors will be able to distribute Workstation 16:08:47 though I see the QA concern 16:08:53 so do you want to kill i686 or are you fine with the ambassadors continuing the current dual-arch thing? 16:09:10 note this would also impact the size 16:09:19 currently we are at 1.2-1.3 GB 16:09:20 I think it is positive that we're getting closer to the actual product with this dual-arch thing 16:09:25 many parts of the world i686 is still the main arch in use 16:09:26 yes 16:09:32 so it should fit on a single DVD no matter what 16:09:54 is the size going to change significantly? 16:10:08 I heared the server targets 4 Gb but they are currently ~2 16:10:11 shouldn't, unless we start installing KDE by default (which i don't think we'd do) 16:10:18 ok then 16:10:29 cwickert: we need to fit in a dual layer DVD, everything has gotten bigger so we likely will have to drop a spin to make it fit 16:10:31 and no, we don't want KDE, I want this the pure workstation product 16:10:54 easy to use disks to restore .iso (dd) to 8 GB USB (cheap) for multi 16:11:02 dvd? i686? ... me feels like he travled 10 years back into the past ;) 16:11:04 dgilmore: no, this is only for the workstation for now. it should be separate from everything 16:11:37 cwickert: so you are talking about a Workstation iso with 32 and 64 bit? 16:11:45 dgilmore: yes 16:11:46 cwickert: are you using dvds or usb media or both? 16:11:48 I would be against making that, but its not my call 16:11:58 cwickert: some laptops (like mine) do not even have a dvd drive 16:12:05 dgilmore: if you give us money for USB keys to give away ;) 16:12:14 sorry, that was for drago01 16:12:15 drago01: at events ambasadors give out dvd media 16:12:36 the ambassadors still might to decide they want to do a "alternate" DVD for KDE, Xfce, LXDE and MATE, but I think this should be totally separated from the product 16:12:39 I think you all agree 16:12:52 cwickert, dgilmore : ok 16:13:03 cwickert: I would ask what the point of it is? and where it should be in the release tree? 16:13:22 dgilmore: I don't get the second part of that question 16:13:37 * jwb notes we're over time 16:13:50 ok then, I will bring this up on the list 16:13:55 cwickert: /pub/fedora/linux/release /pub/alt/releases/Multi 16:13:59 i don't think anyone in the WG disagreed with cwickert's recommendation. can we work out the details on-list? 16:14:11 jwb: ok 16:14:30 #action cwickert to work out details of dual-arch workstation ambassador DVD on list 16:14:36 cwickert: where it should go will effect how strongly I oppose the creation of it 16:14:36 dgilmore: I will get back to you once the WG and the ambassadors have made up their minds, ok? 16:14:49 thanks for bringing this up cwickert 16:14:52 np 16:14:56 thanks cwickert 16:15:07 in /pub/fedora/linux/release will make mirrors unhappy 16:15:31 agreed 16:16:05 ok, i'm going to end the meeting. next meeting is on Sept 24th 16:16:18 #info next Workstation meeting is Sept 24th. 16:16:23 thanks everyone! 16:16:29 yay thanks 16:16:30 #endmeeting