14:00:00 <stickster> #startmeeting Workstation WG
14:00:00 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed May 25 14:00:00 2016 UTC.  The chair is stickster. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:00:00 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:00:00 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation_wg'
14:00:02 <stickster> #meetingname workstation
14:00:02 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation'
14:00:03 <stickster> #topic Roll call
14:00:04 <stickster> .hello pfrields
14:00:05 <zodbot> stickster: pfrields 'Paul W. Frields' <stickster@gmail.com>
14:00:14 <otaylor> .hello otaylor
14:00:15 <zodbot> otaylor: otaylor 'Owen Taylor' <otaylor@redhat.com>
14:00:15 <mcatanzaro> .hello catanzaro
14:00:20 <stickster> mcatanzaro: Hey, you made it!
14:00:20 <zodbot> mcatanzaro: catanzaro 'None' <mcatanzaro@gnome.org>
14:01:17 <stickster> rdieter: rdieter_work: mclasen___: cschalle_: juhp: kalev-afk: ping
14:01:22 <mclasen___> .hello mclasen
14:01:23 <zodbot> mclasen___: mclasen 'Matthias Clasen' <mclasen@redhat.com>
14:01:33 <cschalle_> pong
14:01:36 * stickster gives a couple minutes for others to come in
14:01:42 <rdieter> .hello rdieter
14:01:43 <zodbot> rdieter: rdieter 'Rex Dieter' <rdieter@math.unl.edu>
14:01:57 <kalev-afk> .hello kalev
14:01:57 <zodbot> kalev-afk: kalev 'Kalev Lember' <klember@redhat.com>
14:02:26 <skrzepto> .hello skrzepto
14:02:28 <zodbot> skrzepto: skrzepto 'Szymon Mucha' <shims506@gmail.com>
14:03:17 <stickster> #chair otaylor mcatanzaro mclasen___ cschalle_ rdieter kalev-afk
14:03:17 <zodbot> Current chairs: cschalle_ kalev-afk mcatanzaro mclasen___ otaylor rdieter stickster
14:03:17 <cschalle_> .hello cschalle
14:03:18 <zodbot> cschalle_: Sorry, but you don't exist
14:03:24 <cschalle_> nooo
14:03:30 <stickster> existential crisis commences
14:03:36 <stickster> try '.hello cschaller' ?
14:03:42 <stickster> I think it's keyed off your FAS name
14:03:52 <cschalle_> .hello uraeus
14:03:53 <zodbot> cschalle_: uraeus 'Christian Schaller' <uraeus@linuxrising.org>
14:03:56 <cschalle_> there we go
14:03:57 <stickster> oh there you go
14:04:50 <stickster> #topic GNOME Boxes/libvirt default network bug
14:04:56 <stickster> #link https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1164492
14:05:04 <stickster> decause: Also ping, since you're up next
14:05:10 <decause> .hello decause
14:05:11 <zodbot> decause: decause 'Remy DeCausemaker' <decause@redhat.com>
14:05:26 <decause> stickster: should I go now?
14:05:29 <stickster> So on the topic of this Boxes/libvirt bug... this is a longstanding issue AIUI
14:05:35 <stickster> decause: hold please, next topic is you
14:05:37 <decause> kk
14:05:39 <decause> thanks
14:05:43 <otaylor> stickster: it's pretty incredible to me that we've been doing this weird dance for multiple releases
14:05:57 <mclasen___> it just seems wrong to set network configuration via package dependency
14:07:23 <mclasen___> stickster: I admit to not having read the entire backlog in the bug - is there a proposed f24 solution ?
14:07:25 <otaylor> Long term, I think we need to ecncourage libvirt+kvm+networking people to figure out a better way to handle networking for the user libvirtd
14:08:12 <kalev-afk> I'm not fully convinced that Boxes is something that should be on the live media in the first place, it has pretty heavy deps and is probably only be useful for a small subset of users
14:08:15 <otaylor> it's also a big problem for vagrant-libvirt, that needs to use the system libvirtd, which causes other things to work weirdly (like shared directories have to have to be read/write the qemu user)
14:08:39 <stickster> mclasen___: There's a fix suggested in the original bug from F21 timeframe, https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1146232
14:09:05 <kalev-afk> adamw has been doing the dance of removing the dep for last few releases, could easily do the same again
14:09:12 <stickster> kalev-afk: The issue there is that the Live media contains the image that's going to be transferred to the Workstation that most people install
14:09:29 <adamw> kalev-afk: we missed it for f23, i think.
14:09:33 <mclasen___> I don't think we want to start defining a separate live image package set
14:09:59 <stickster> kalev-afk: So, seeing as how the Live image is the definition of "what you'll get by default installation," and we prioritize that as the installable source people download, we can't really drop it and then expect people with Workstation to end up using Boxes
14:10:12 <otaylor> It sounds like Cole Robinson rejected adding the CondVirtualization to f24, so the only approach would be to do the dependency dance again
14:10:41 <stickster> otaylor: Correct, but I don't think he ruled it out for F25
14:10:52 <adamw> otaylor: the idea was always that someone would come up with a better fix, it's just that it never actually happened, so we kept coming back to the same workaround.
14:11:05 <mclasen___> well, given that this has been going on since f21, we should figure out a way to ensure that it happens this time around
14:11:16 <kalev-afk> I can volunteer
14:11:17 <mclasen___> cole not ruling it out doesn't seem to be sufficient...
14:11:30 <rdieter> another case of perfect being enemy of the good it seems :-/
14:12:21 * stickster leaves https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1146232#c55
14:12:51 <rdieter> stickster: +1
14:13:06 <stickster> I understand and agree that we probably need to do the dependency workaround for F24... not introducing new problems at this point in F24 is smart
14:13:55 <stickster> adamw: I put a NEEDINFO on that bug and can follow up in a few weeks to see that it went in, if you think Cole is OK with this -- I can of course touch base with him to make sure of that, don't need to ASSume it
14:14:20 <mcatanzaro> I fear Cole is not keen on this solution for F24 or for F25 either, but it seems like a good approach to me... Workstation users really do not need virtualization to work inside of VMs....
14:14:44 * stickster needs to take some time to more thoroughly understand the problem anyway
14:15:17 <mcatanzaro> We don't need Russian stacking doll level virtualization
14:15:36 * rdieter agrees
14:16:16 <stickster> it seems a little off the beaten path, yeah
14:17:22 <stickster> So... is the next action here for zeeshan to drop the dep and rebuild?
14:17:33 <rdieter> seems so
14:17:54 <mclasen___> I'll deliver that message
14:18:11 <stickster> #action mclasen___ work with zeeshan to do dep-dropping dance in gnome-boxes for F24
14:18:11 <kalev-afk> I just did that, http://pkgs.fedoraproject.org/cgit/rpms/gnome-boxes.git/commit/?h=f24&id=dbf30611915da77a96a7680002a87509fad34787
14:18:20 <stickster> #undo
14:18:20 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: ACTION by stickster at 14:18:11 : mclasen___ work with zeeshan to do dep-dropping dance in gnome-boxes for F24
14:18:25 <stickster> ah, okey dokey, thank you kalev-afk
14:18:31 <rdieter> kalev++
14:18:31 <zodbot> rdieter: Karma for kalev changed to 6 (for the f23 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:18:58 <mcatanzaro> kalev you did it on master too, that's not very temporary ;)
14:19:12 <stickster> #action kalev-afk do dep-dropping dance, rebuild, work with zeeshan to restore in rawhide as needed
14:19:44 <stickster> #action stickster do add'l research to understand problem, work with adamw, zeeshan, mclasen___, et al. on workable F25 solution
14:19:55 <stickster> kalev-afk++
14:20:02 <stickster> kalev++
14:20:03 <zodbot> stickster: Karma for kalev changed to 7 (for the f23 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:20:07 <stickster> yay, cookies
14:20:10 <kalev-afk> nom nom, cookies
14:20:19 <stickster> Anything else on this one then?
14:20:26 <otaylor> stickster: can you add me on a cc if you send out mails - I have opinions here (which I think more are NetworkManager <=> libvirt than gnome-boxes)
14:21:01 <stickster> otaylor: ack
14:21:10 <stickster> ok moving on
14:21:16 <stickster> #topic Workstation demo at Red Hat Summit
14:21:36 * decause steps up
14:21:40 <stickster> So just by way of context... the Red Hat Summit is a huge conference that a lot of Red Hat customers, partners, and users attend
14:21:40 <decause> so
14:22:26 <decause> and this year, Fedora has a prominent placement within "community central" where a number of projects will have their booths
14:22:27 <stickster> There will be a Fedora booth in a "community central" type area, along with other associated community booths. At that booth there are scheduled to be systems running Fedora editions, so we have the opportunity to do something with Fedora Workstation there
14:22:34 <stickster> ha, I yield to decause  :-)
14:22:36 * decause waits for stickster to finish
14:22:38 <decause> ok
14:22:40 <stickster> <eof>
14:23:20 <decause> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Red_Hat_Summit_2016
14:23:36 <decause> This is the wiki page we are using to organize and socialize our plans for RHT Summit
14:23:51 <otaylor> decause: Is it better to have a recorded demo, rather than just running through things live?
14:24:00 <decause> there is a variety of activity that has already been identified and carried out
14:24:25 <stickster> otaylor: That's my opinion, yes
14:24:39 <decause> that is safest
14:25:05 <decause> I have it on good authority that we'll have power and net, but aiming for the least common denominator is prolly a good call
14:25:09 <otaylor> safest and also means that it doesn't count on somebody being at the booth who knows how to run it continually
14:25:16 <decause> otaylor: also agreed
14:25:18 <decause> and
14:25:28 <stickster> I don't think we can be 100% certain of someone manning the demo at all times who's conversant with all parts of Workstation... Not that I fit that criterion myself, but althought I'll be at Summit, I won't be able to be a booth-babe (booth-bozo?) much
14:25:31 <decause> we're going to have 4 laptops (we've requested them at least)
14:25:43 <mclasen___> what length video are we aiming for here - 5 minutes ?
14:25:56 <mclasen___> with text overlay / audio / both ?
14:26:09 <stickster> mclasen___: We could do several of them and have them run in a loop
14:26:13 <decause> at least one should absolutely have the Workstation Demo as a dedicated activity
14:26:29 <stickster> mclasen___: in my experience text/subtitle overlay is a very good thing, because of noise factor
14:26:42 <decause> stickster: +1
14:26:58 <mclasen___> my experience is that doing videos in quality we had for rh workstation in past years is a lot of effort
14:27:08 <mcatanzaro> I suspect shorter (roughly 2 minutes) would work better than longer
14:27:09 <mclasen___> as in weeks of jimmac time
14:27:40 <otaylor> We probably can just skip audio entirely unless we want to reuse the demo
14:28:39 <stickster> mclasen___: When I did these for anaconda for a previous Summit, I spent on the order of 1.5-3 hours per video, depending on the complexity of the procedure
14:28:47 <stickster> that included audio + subtitling
14:28:49 <otaylor> mclasen___: I don't think that it needs to look entirely polished and professional - probably could just be a live recording of someone with a few overlayed titles - getting jimmac to do something low-fi may be hard though :-)
14:28:50 <stickster> + video editing
14:29:26 * mclasen___ had videos rendered in blender with nice overlays and transitions
14:29:26 <stickster> A screencast of feature demonstration would probably be sufficient
14:29:31 <mclasen___> it was really nice
14:29:36 <stickster> mclasen___: yes, those were beautiful, I remember them well
14:30:01 <stickster> however, if we don't intend for these to have long shelf life, something with a lower bar would still be fine
14:30:15 <mclasen___> nostalgia aside, can collect a few topics / apps / use cases to cover ?
14:30:38 <stickster> mclasen___: Sure... and if you're looking for a participant, I can set some time aside to help, since I've done it before
14:31:00 * stickster would also like to share his method/madness with others
14:31:01 <otaylor> Basic question is are we trying for these to be *F24 Workstation* videos or *Fedora Workstation* videos
14:31:58 <decause> If there is some super defining characteristic of F24 that would be awesome to highlight, great!
14:32:06 <stickster> cschalle_: this is a great place for you to chime in, but IMHO we may want one or two that are general (the latter), setting out the reason Workstation exists, and highlighting some general characteristics
14:32:33 <stickster> then maybe a few that are specifically the latest and greatest stuff e.g. in GNOME 3.20 as part of the Workstation
14:33:02 <decause> wfm
14:34:26 <cschalle_> I would maybe make it future oriented so make videos advertising Wayland, Flatpak and so on. it is always easier to make people excited about the future than the present
14:34:46 <stickster> cschalle_: good point
14:35:12 <stickster> So it sounds like we're agreed that a few video demos shouldn't be too hard to do -- we have about 4 weeks
14:35:44 <otaylor> The Fedora booth is one place we can do that at the summit without making anybody grumpy!
14:35:51 <stickster> otaylor: exactly :-)
14:35:55 <cschalle_> this being for the summit maybe highlighting rishis work on subscription manager integration in fedora would be a plus, definetly the target audience
14:36:18 <mclasen___> well, that work hasn't happened yet
14:36:31 <cschalle_> mclasen___, yes, but we are selling the future here :)
14:36:33 <mclasen___> so its hard to highlight it now
14:36:47 <stickster> otaylor: cschalle_: I've also asked decause elsewhere to touch base with some Fedora-oriented Summit speakers, so they can point out the demos at the booth (not just Workstation) e.g. in the last slide of their respective talks
14:36:48 <mcatanzaro> subscription manager? (Kerberos?)
14:37:18 <decause> stickster: nod nod
14:37:20 <stickster> cschalle_: I think something like that would work better as mentioned *in* an associated talk, as opposed to trying to demo that which doesn't exist
14:37:31 <cschalle_> mcatanzaro, rishi is looking into integrating the RHEL subscription manager with GOA, so that you can get automatic entitlements in docker for RHEL development
14:38:15 <cschalle_> stickster, well we would definetly not demo it :) but in the world of animations and slides everything already exists :)
14:39:07 <stickster> Right now I'm betting that Flatpak, Wayland (maybe? after all, shouldn't *look* different), Software distro-upgrade would work OK
14:39:26 <stickster> Anyway, we can dump those ideas somewhere in writing
14:39:48 <stickster> #action mclasen___ start a public etherpad or wiki page we can pull together the concepts in the next day or two
14:40:04 <decause> stickster: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Red_Hat_Summit_2016
14:40:13 <decause> there is a section at the bottom for ideas/brainstorming?
14:40:26 * decause likes etherpad too though
14:40:36 * stickster goes with whatever Matthias likes
14:40:45 <decause> nod nod nod
14:40:56 <stickster> but we'll pull together the final plan there for sure, decause
14:40:58 <stickster> thanks
14:41:12 <stickster> so far it looks like...
14:41:14 <stickster> #idea Wayland
14:41:17 <stickster> #idea Flatpak
14:41:26 <mclasen___> stickster: Wayland is really hard to demo convincingly
14:41:33 <mclasen___> "see, you see nothing!"
14:41:39 <stickster> mclasen___: yeah, true :-)
14:41:49 <stickster> mclasen___: That might make for a funny video, actually
14:42:07 <stickster> "<show Xorg> <show same thing in Wayland> Do you see any difference? EXACTLY"
14:42:14 <mclasen___> it would be more convincing maybe to run the demo workstation under wayland and casually mention it
14:42:17 <decause> :P
14:42:21 <stickster> mclasen___: disco
14:42:46 <stickster> #idea demo definitely should run on F24 GNOME Wayland session!
14:42:59 <stickster> #idea subscription manager integration with GOA
14:43:18 <stickster> #idea Software distro upgrade
14:43:34 <stickster> Anything else we can seed here?
14:44:01 <decause> #link http://etherpad.osuosl.org/fedora-rht-summit
14:44:13 <decause> this has some of our 'working content' in it already
14:44:26 <mclasen___> there's plenty of gnome-software features that are demoable
14:45:09 <stickster> mclasen___: Agreed, like software ratings, labels, etc
14:45:21 <stickster> #idea other Software features
14:45:56 <otaylor> Some video that focuses on developer features? Not really sure what that is at the moment other than Boxes
14:47:09 <stickster> otaylor: kind of makes one think we need to put together a better overarching developer plan... ;-\
14:47:27 <stickster> #idea Boxes or other developer features
14:47:45 <otaylor> I have a talk on that accepted at Flock, I better work on it :-)
14:47:51 <stickster> otaylor: nice :-)
14:47:57 <stickster> OK, let's take further stuff to wiki -- Matthias will let us know if he prefers elsewhere
14:48:04 <stickster> shall we move on?
14:48:14 <stickster> Thank you decause for being here and setting up the conversation
14:48:37 <cschalle_> yeah, lets move on
14:48:39 <stickster> #topic Open floor (all other business)
14:49:15 <stickster> anyone got a topic?
14:49:25 <kalev-afk> I have a quick packaging question -- should we ship F24 with wayland 1.10 or wayland 1.11 RC ?
14:50:14 <mclasen___> I think 1.10 is fine
14:50:19 <kalev-afk> ok
14:50:19 <decause> stickster: thanks for having me. and more importantly, thank you all in the WG for the work you do to make Fedora amazing for our users
14:50:55 <mclasen___> I have a quick update from the workstation ostree effort
14:51:02 <stickster> Go for it!
14:51:23 <stickster> #info F24 to ship with Wayland 1.10, save 1.11+ for later
14:51:26 <mclasen___> owen and I met again with the rel-eng team yesterday to continue the discussion of koji integration
14:51:54 <mclasen___> no concrete progress yet, we've thrown around some of the pros and cons of various approaches
14:52:13 <mclasen___> we'll bring this discussion to the koji maintainers to get guidance on the way forward
14:52:34 <mclasen___> otaylor: stickster: hope thats a fair summary ?
14:53:04 <otaylor> mclasen___: Sounds right
14:53:20 <stickster> mclasen___: +1
14:53:46 <stickster> the great part of this is no surprises for F25 ("wait, you want to do *what*?!?") :-)
14:54:57 <stickster> #info discussion in progress with koji maintainers on how to properly enable shipping ostree/flatpak deliverables in F25+
14:55:09 <stickster> anyone else? holding the door for 1 minute
14:55:42 * mclasen___ added the demo ideas to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Red_Hat_Summit_2016#Fedora_Workstation_Demo
14:55:51 <stickster> Hey, just for my curiosity... has anyone else been experiencing BZ spam e.g. bug 1339549?
14:56:10 <stickster> Thanks mclasen___
14:56:24 <mcatanzaro> First BZ spam I've seen
14:56:47 <mclasen___> there was bug spamming going on yesterday on bugs.freedesktop.org
14:56:48 <stickster> Not sure whether to escalate further. I think BZ maintainers are aware of it, but I have no idea what they're doing for countermeasures
14:56:54 <stickster> mclasen___: I HATE THESE GUYS
14:57:11 <stickster> Seriously, out of all the targets you could pick... why a FOSS bug tracker?!?
14:57:50 <stickster> OK, enough on that... thanks everyone for coming :-)
14:57:54 <stickster> #endmeeting