14:00:01 #startmeeting Workstation WG 14:00:01 Meeting started Wed Aug 17 14:00:01 2016 UTC. The chair is stickster. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 14:00:01 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 14:00:01 The meeting name has been set to 'workstation_wg' 14:00:02 #meetingname workstation 14:00:02 The meeting name has been set to 'workstation' 14:00:04 #topic Roll call 14:00:06 .hello pfrields 14:00:06 stickster: pfrields 'Paul W. Frields' 14:00:11 hello 14:00:13 .hello ryanlerch 14:00:14 ryanlerch: ryanlerch 'Ryan Lerch' 14:02:50 .hello mclasen 14:02:51 mclasen: mclasen 'Matthias Clasen' 14:02:59 .chair ryanlerch mclasen 14:02:59 ryanlerch mclasen is seated in a chair with a nice view of a placid lake, unsuspecting that another chair is about to be slammed into them. 14:03:07 oops 14:03:08 .hello Catanzaro 14:03:08 mcatanzaro: Sorry, but you don't exist 14:03:10 oopshaha 14:03:16 #chair ryanlerch mclasen mcatanzaro 14:03:16 Current chairs: mcatanzaro mclasen ryanlerch stickster 14:03:22 .hello catanzaro 14:03:23 mcatanzaro: catanzaro 'None' 14:03:24 stickster: bizarro 14:04:00 So has zodbot gone crazy? "ryanlerch mclasen is seated in a chair with a nice view of a placid lake" ??? 14:04:08 I guess it's cute.... 14:04:12 mcatanzaro: since I used .chair instead of #chair :-) 14:04:29 .chair stickster 14:04:29 stickster is seated in a chair with a nice view of a placid lake, unsuspecting that another chair is about to be slammed into them. 14:04:30 * stickster wonders how many other Easter eggs there are in there :-) 14:04:35 Hmmmm 14:04:51 hello 14:04:57 #chair kalev 14:04:57 Current chairs: kalev mcatanzaro mclasen ryanlerch stickster 14:05:05 * stickster sees quorum and gets started 14:05:23 When exactly did Steve Ballmer get put in charge of Zodbot? 14:05:57 hey, the guy loves Linux now... right? *crickets* 14:06:07 #topic F25 talking points 14:06:45 So jflory7 contacted me the other night about talking points for the next release. Although we're still shy of Alpha, it's not too early to start thinking about the major theme(s) for Workstation we want to promulgate for the release 14:07:01 By coincidence, a current discussion is underway for Wayland by default ;-) 14:08:21 As I was looking to assemble a short, preliminary list, I visited the Workstation tasklist on the wiki 14:08:34 #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Workstation/Tasklist 14:08:59 * mclasen starts orca to check 14:10:59 stickster: was there a question ? 14:11:05 The tasklist could definitely use some updating, I think mclasen usually brings that into alignment with reality each release 14:11:15 stickster: the wayland story is probably the biggest one there (covering a few of the work items on that list) 14:11:42 I can go over the tasklist next week when I'm back in the office 14:11:50 mclasen: Ah! I didn't realize you were still out 14:12:01 back on tuesday 14:12:06 gotcha 14:12:09 plus the new items that we will get from the next GNOME release too 14:12:32 flatpak support in gnome-software ? 14:12:46 #action mclasen revise Workstation tasklist on wiki with work items from 3.22, GUADEC, etc. next week-ish 14:13:57 ok 14:14:04 stickster: can "wayland" be a theme? 14:14:27 ryanlerch: Well, it's certainly a talking point which is the main issue here 14:14:47 mclasen: and David's work with rpm-ostree based Workstation prototype... what are next steps for us to be able to offer something for public download (even by a reduced set of intrepid early adopters)? 14:15:07 #info talking point: Wayland as default (still TBD but looking more likely) 14:16:08 for the rpm-ostree based workstation prototype, we need to take the work that colin has done, and move it into the repository thats built by rel-eng 14:17:28 mclasen: has someone discussed the details with e.g. admiller or dgilmore? I don't know what that move entails 14:17:55 I don't think so; put this on my list for next week too 14:18:33 * stickster feels like he's loading up mclasen's list unfairly :-) 14:19:05 #info talking point: early preview of rpm-ostree based Workstation (potential) 14:19:12 On the topic of flatpak support... I'm not caught up on e.g. hughsie blogs; what kind of expanded support is there? 14:20:02 Installing flatpaks, updating flatpaks, removing flatpaks 14:20:04 * stickster kind of guesses there is a flood of post-GUADEC ideas/hacking/etc. on the way or perhaps already hitting the airwaves 14:21:13 #info talking point: more flatpak support in GNOME Software (install, update, remove) 14:21:13 stickster: automatically installing required and related runtimes 14:21:22 #undo 14:21:22 Removing item from minutes: INFO by stickster at 14:21:13 : talking point: more flatpak support in GNOME Software (install, update, remove) 14:21:33 #info talking point: more flatpak support in GNOME Software (install, update, remove, auto-install required and related runtimes) 14:23:59 * stickster wracks brain for other psosible themes upcoming 14:24:26 #action stickster contact Matthew Miller + Stephen Gallagher to get outputs from the Flock session on updated Workstation PRD 14:24:57 stickster: The notes were posted to the Council list 14:25:03 ^ We had some good discussion there. I don't remember all of it because I was sick and dosed on meds, but I do remember there was some excellent discussion that we might be able to 14:25:03 One moment and I'll get you a link 14:25:09 ...to mine here. 14:25:18 sgallagh: that's awesome, thank you sir! 14:25:24 sgallagh++ 14:25:26 stickster: Karma for sgallagh changed to 7 (for the f24 release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 14:25:29 COOKIE FOR YOU! 14:25:39 mclasen++ 14:25:39 stickster: Karma for mclasen changed to 1 (for the f24 release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 14:25:41 stickster: https://fedorahosted.org/council/attachment/ticket/63/PRDLogicModels.txt 14:25:50 and you get a cookie, and you get a cookie... everyone gets a cookie! 14:25:51 mclasen: stickster: we are already making workstation ostree 14:26:07 dgilmore++ 14:26:07 stickster: Karma for ausil changed to 2 (for the f24 release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 14:26:16 we have zero flatpak anything 14:26:42 and zero infra stto support it 14:26:42 dgilmore: Is there anything you're in need of from the WG (or desktop folks) for the rpm-ostree Workstation to be available for people to d/l or try at F25? 14:27:10 stickster: its already all in place. it needs testing and confirmation that it works 14:27:11 dgilmore: I know - but colin has a fork of that work that he's building in centos ci, which has some extra features we want 14:27:20 the WG needs to work with QA on that 14:27:42 mclasen: well then he needs to get that into Fedora 14:27:59 and any changes that are needed by us need to be communicated to us 14:28:20 I know, the ball is in our court 14:29:44 mclasen: I can contact adamw & the #fedora-qa folks to find out how we can best work with QA on testing/confirmation here 14:30:08 ISTM we can easily have that discussion productively on the mailing list 14:31:30 #action stickster start rpm-ostree Workstation testing discussion on desktop@ list w/ adamw & QA team -- e.g. what testing is mandatory, what can the WG help with 14:31:59 methinks F25 has kind of clobbered us schedule-wise, what with summer, Flock etc. 14:33:53 Anything else on this? Are we ready to move on...? 14:33:57 mcatanzaro: I am. 14:34:37 #topic Open floor (all other business) 14:35:14 stickster: What about Wayland readiness? 14:35:28 #info === Wayland readiness === 14:35:33 :-) 14:36:24 One of the proximate issues brought up on list was fallback on not having apps started by root 14:36:59 Now seems like as good a time as any to break those apps 14:37:00 gedit actually starts with sudo -E 14:37:06 gparted doesn't 14:37:41 FWIW, I have seen *multiple* users need to get their computers reflashed because they accidentally ran GUI apps (e.g. rhythmbox) as root, then the apps would not start anymore 14:38:12 mcatanzaro: due to file permissions being reset during the as-root run? 14:38:13 * mclasen doesn't see the connection 14:38:18 stickster: Yes 14:38:57 well, we certainly don't want to *encourage* users to run things as root, I think the question is more about things that more or less *have* to run that way, and what happens to them 14:39:00 Many apps are understandably not prepared to handle user files suddenly becoming root-owned 14:39:31 stickster: No apps have to run as root. Apps should use polkit. It's been along more than long enough by now. 14:40:31 we have patches for polkit-mediated privilege escalation in gvfs in the works 14:40:33 It's unfortunate that GParted still requires root, but is it really a blocker for us? (I guess I don't care very much about GParted....) 14:40:36 Are there alternatives to the problem apps like gparted? (Disks, for example, doesn't seem to handle the same functions) 14:40:41 not sure they will make 3.22, though 14:41:07 stickster: it handles most of them, except for lvm 14:41:53 mclasen: Can you grab/resize partitions in Disks? I don't recall that being easy. But then again, I'm not sure this is something that people do often 14:42:23 You can do it (well, resizing, minus the visual "grabbing") in parted at the terminal IIRC 14:42:49 I would hesitate to say "gparted doesn't work" is a blocker for Wayland 14:42:53 stickster: Maybe we should be advocating the use of Cockpit for this purpose? 14:43:00 sgallagh: what a great point ;-) 14:43:07 TBH I don't know what all Disks supports, because we use LVM by default in Fedora, and Disks doesn't support that 14:43:10 Cockpit can handle much of gparted's capabilities 14:43:19 (including LVM) 14:43:23 sgallagh: bingo 14:43:47 It's not hard to wrap sudo in something that manipulates XAUTHORITY to let you run any X app as root if you really want to. 14:44:01 Some other significant issues: window focus sometimes gets messed up so you can't type into a particular application (see Peter Robinson's email on the list, it's quite annoying) 14:44:13 https://paste.fedoraproject.org/409682/71445042/ if anyone _really_ cares. 14:44:38 No clipboard support in WebKit (Peter Robinson says it should be a blocker; I probably have a conflict of interest here though in that my employer would charge to fix this) 14:44:57 gnome-shell not being able to restart (annoying but probably not a blocker) 14:45:27 "Show Keyboard Layout" (libgnomekbd) crashes immediately (blocker IMO) 14:45:43 sushi is totally broken (blocker IMO unless we remove it from nautilus) 14:46:05 No clipboard manager: if you Copy in an app and close the app, whatever you Copied gets lost; it's expected to be saved by mutter 14:46:32 gtk_window_present is broken, extremely annoying when starting gedit or Epiphany 14:47:19 a11y problems, remote desktop/VMs not working, reported by Christian Stadelmann 14:47:34 #link https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=wayland 14:47:38 #link https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=WaylandRelated 14:47:58 #link https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=WaylandRelated 14:48:03 OK, that's all I've got 14:48:43 I'm on the fence TBH, none of these seem like total blockers to me, but all of them collectively... would be nice to make some more progress on this 14:49:48 * mcatanzaro notes that he tagged some of those issues as blockers, then said "none are blockers"... I'm not very consistent about such things 14:49:50 * mclasen gets annoyed by endless blocker lists 14:50:05 mcatanzaro: you are legion, you contain many ;-) 14:50:13 its the way we're making it impossible for us to every get it done 14:50:32 Thing is, if we never switch the default, progress on these issues will remain slow; I'm pretty sure things will improve once we make the switch and stick to it 14:50:40 I think it's important to point out we're not *removing* Xorg, so people can fall back where needed 14:51:02 That's especially important for a11y, but we should be clear about it in e.g. talking points 14:51:04 And we are pretty close. And we're not *removing* Xorg, so people can fall back where needed. ;) 14:51:07 *jinx 14:51:27 * mclasen is appalled that orca segfaults under wayland 14:52:09 * stickster would like to see us make a call on Wayland as an agenda item next meeting 14:52:37 * mcatanzaro doubts much will change in two weeks, but also notes we only have 8 minutes left now 14:52:53 personally, I'm +1 to switch for no other reasons than what mcatanzaro already cited -- (1) not removing Xorg, and (2) it's sort of a forcing function for big bugs 14:53:10 there's no doubt that Wayland has been quite usable now for more than one release 14:53:37 mcatanzaro: yeah, just want to give folks heads-up, and make sure that a few more WG people are present for that :-) 14:53:48 * kalev has to leave now, sorry guys. 14:53:57 I think I'm +1 as well, but it's a tough call; I'm sure we'll get criticized for this, it reinforces the "Fedora is a testbed" belief we've been trying to get rid of 14:54:02 kalev: We'll assign all the Wayland bugs to you, no problem ;-) 14:54:05 :) 14:54:29 We do have several fans, though, on Reddit and Google+ and other places, commenting on how good our Wayland support is in F24 14:54:33 the alternative is "Fedora takes forever to use new stuff" :-) 14:54:57 stickster: I think we're pretty much immune to that, we'll be first regardless 14:55:11 Not that I have a vote, but I'm in the "rip off the band-aid" camp 14:55:15 *nod 14:55:22 OK, anything else on this before we move on? 14:55:33 #action stickster make sure "Wayland by default" is top of next agenda 14:56:17 That may wrap it up for today, then. 14:56:37 I hope everyone who went had a fantastic GUADEC. :-) One day I hope to make it there again. 14:56:48 It has been a good GUADEC! 14:57:27 OK, th-th-that's all folks, see you on the list, and back here in two weeks for another exciting episode. ;-) 14:57:27 * mcatanzaro and mclasen sitting in chairs with a nice view of a placid town, unsuspecting that another GUADEC is just around the corner. 14:57:35 lol 14:57:39 and with that... 14:57:41 #endmeeting