14:00:20 <stickster> #startmeeting Workstation WG
14:00:20 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Aug 31 14:00:20 2016 UTC.  The chair is stickster. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:00:20 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:00:20 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation_wg'
14:00:22 <stickster> #meetingname workstation
14:00:22 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation'
14:00:23 <stickster> #topic Roll call
14:00:25 <stickster> .hello pfrields
14:00:26 <zodbot> stickster: pfrields 'Paul W. Frields' <stickster@gmail.com>
14:00:33 <ryanlerch> .hello ryanlerch
14:00:34 <zodbot> ryanlerch: ryanlerch 'Ryan Lerch' <rlerch@redhat.com>
14:01:05 * stickster notes ryanlerch is here way past his bedtime, so let's make sure there's something controversial at the top to keep him awake :-D
14:01:22 <kalev> morning
14:01:25 <rdieter> hi
14:02:52 * stickster waves and gives others another minute to show up
14:02:56 <stickster> #chair kalev rdieter ryanlerch
14:02:56 <zodbot> Current chairs: kalev rdieter ryanlerch stickster
14:03:15 <otaylor> .hello otaylor
14:03:16 <zodbot> otaylor: otaylor 'Owen Taylor' <otaylor@redhat.com>
14:04:09 <stickster> #chair otaylor
14:04:09 <zodbot> Current chairs: kalev otaylor rdieter ryanlerch stickster
14:04:16 <stickster> Well, let's get started since we have quorum
14:05:00 <stickster> First, sorry for the late agenda. I'm trying to get better about having it out early but abjectly failed this week
14:05:06 <stickster> #topic Meeting time
14:05:12 * mclasen walks in late
14:05:16 <stickster> #chair mclasen
14:05:16 <zodbot> Current chairs: kalev mclasen otaylor rdieter ryanlerch stickster
14:05:58 <stickster> Problem: mcatanzaro is one of our very active WG members. While we can't equally accommodate every person, it would be a shame for him never to be able to show up. But this hour won't work at all for him for the next several months or maybe longer.
14:06:48 <stickster> If we were to shift an hour earlier or later, we could make it work for him. If we go earlier, it also gets a little easier for ryanlerch to be here, but maybe US people would hate that; if later, probably not possible for anyone in APAC.
14:06:49 <mclasen> do we have an alternative ? istr that we looked for one at some point ?
14:07:52 <stickster> I think the best solution is for me to again put a whenisgood on the list, and see if we can make one of those different hours work for enough people.
14:08:00 <otaylor> Presumably we need to do this with some technology - the chance that say "1 hour earlier" would work for everyone seems small. (1 hour earlier does work for me, though I may be a little bit late some mornigs)
14:08:35 <stickster> #proposed stickster will put a whenisgood on the list for WG members to chime in preferences
14:08:39 <mclasen> same here
14:08:57 <mclasen> lets make a deadline for it ? put it up today and decide next week/next meeting ?
14:09:02 <stickster> agreed
14:09:30 <stickster> #action stickster put whenisgood on list after this meeting, and finalize decision by no later than next WG meeting
14:09:48 <stickster> don't need to beat this into the ground, shall we move on to Wayland?
14:10:27 <otaylor> stickster: sounds good
14:10:33 <stickster> #topic Wayland by default
14:11:00 <stickster> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/WaylandByDefault
14:11:12 <kalev> so, the status here is that we already have wayland as default. the question is, should we keep it?
14:11:14 <stickster> So right now we have a fantastic rundown of features that ofourdan did as well -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Wayland_features
14:11:27 <kalev> FESCo approved having it default so we have a green light ahead if we want to
14:11:46 <kalev> and already a lot of press stating that this is going to be the case, so it may be difficult to reverse course at this point because of that
14:11:59 <stickster> kalev: Sort of -- the question is maybe more like, "Let's agree how and when we're going to make that final call"
14:12:09 <stickster> although that wasn't in the form of a question :-)
14:12:33 <mclasen> I have several people working hard on making it solid now
14:13:31 <stickster> noted!
14:13:51 <kalev> I hear jonas has a bunch of wayland patches to other projects that haven't made it upstream, such as SDL
14:14:01 <kalev> we should probably try to make sure we have those applied downstream
14:14:22 <stickster> Also, an issue people continue to mention is WebKit...
14:14:47 <kalev> I already picked a bunch of X server wayland patches last week together with ofourdan and backported those, apparently his half year work was still stuck in xorg git master
14:15:03 <stickster> kalev++
14:15:03 <mclasen> kalev: cschaller is on the sdl case
14:15:19 <mclasen> we do plan to carry the patches downstream if we don't get them upstream in time
14:15:29 <kalev> rgr
14:16:57 <mclasen> stickster: what issue, in particular ? the clipboard ?
14:17:05 <stickster> mclasen: right
14:17:36 <mclasen> I have asked our webkit guy, and was told 'mcatanzaro is already working on it'
14:18:18 <stickster> mclasen: although last thing I saw on the list was Aug 17 when he said "no support"
14:18:21 <stickster> "yet"
14:18:40 <mclasen> I'll try to corner him and see where things stand
14:18:53 <stickster> If it's planned, though, then it would be a little awkward to hold the train on a separate upstream
14:18:56 <kalev> what's the fallout from that? can't copy-paste from devhelp and yelp and evolution and epiphany?
14:19:06 <mclasen> yes, it is very annoying
14:19:09 <mclasen> in particular for evolution
14:19:23 * kalev uses thunderbird.
14:19:24 <stickster> (and, for developers, from devhelp I would think)
14:19:29 <mclasen> they finally got their webkit port done, and now it nets them a regression :-(
14:19:35 <stickster> Doh
14:19:53 <kalev> we could force those apps to use the X backend, maybe?
14:21:22 * stickster notes that the Beta freeze point is 2016-09-27 -- so we would probably want to assess and decide to do so at the next WG meeting
14:21:27 <mclasen> I think implementing clipboard support would be better. But yes, that is an option
14:22:03 <stickster> There are basically two features listed as "BLOCKER" on the Wayland features wiki page... primary selection and startup notifications
14:23:01 <stickster> if I read correctly, they're both done, at least for some value of done... but viz. this WebKit thing, the relevant question for us is what the users are going to experience on the whole with the Fedora Workstation
14:24:08 * stickster is 100% in agreement with "rip the bandage off" concept
14:24:11 <kalev> is startup notification working now? I thought it landed, but I've seen gnome-shell showing the startup spinner for most apps for like a whole minute after they get launched
14:24:24 <kalev> is that a fallout from missing startup notification?
14:25:03 <mclasen> yes
14:25:45 <mclasen> I'll check with Carlos on that; he's back on Friday
14:25:56 <stickster> mclasen: It sounds like that's among the things you've got folks working on, then?
14:26:33 <mclasen> well, as you say, its marked as done. We will have to investigate why it doesn't seem to work in some cases
14:26:56 * stickster just tried gedit on his F25 Alpha where he's running Wayland and sees what kalev is talking about
14:28:45 * stickster also notes we have a sizable tree at https://bugzilla.redhat.com/showdependencytree.cgi?id=1277927&hide_resolved=1 -- it would be good to know whether any of those are truly deal-breakers
14:29:13 <mclasen> I'll go through the list
14:29:27 * mclasen notes that people like to make lists
14:30:03 <stickster> yeah
14:30:46 <stickster> mclasen: I think the point for me is, if we get together in two weeks to discuss status, how are we going to know whether to say things are good enough to leave the default alone, and let Wayland stay default?
14:31:36 <stickster> I have a gut feeling that things are moving in the right trajectory, to say it has rough edges but is in sufficiently good shape to go forward...
14:31:37 <rdieter> I think it's easy(ish), is the tracker is empty or not
14:31:47 <stickster> But that tracker is probably not the right one
14:31:48 <rdieter> if the tracker...
14:32:15 <rdieter> it could be, if triaged to track only truly blocker items.  If not, make a new tracker for strictly that purpose
14:32:27 <stickster> ...but quantifying the decision is important, particularly since that helps us tell users, "Here are the expectations for things that aren't great yet, but they will be"
14:32:39 <mclasen> yay, another list!
14:32:48 <stickster> :-)
14:33:42 <stickster> although bugzilla "lists" have the distinction of very little overhead over the actual decision work
14:34:02 <stickster> we don't need another big page of narrative, just to know what's important enough to make sure it's fixed for Beta
14:34:45 <mclasen> as I said, I'll go over that list you pointed out later today. If you want me to filter out a smaller blocker list, I can do that
14:35:13 <stickster> mclasen: I think the small blocker list would be a good idea, it's much easier for us to make a decision on that basis
14:35:35 <stickster> rather than gut feelings... I have plenty of those but I'm wrong as often as not :-)
14:36:51 <stickster> So let's do this... I can #action mclasen on that list, and then we can use that next meeting for deciding whether to stay on the path
14:37:13 <mclasen> I'll send the results of my triage to the list
14:37:45 <stickster> #action mclasen make a proposed "real blocker" list for Wayland default, triaging the WaylandRelated tracker, and send to list
14:37:49 <stickster> Thanks mclasen
14:38:19 <stickster> #info Blocker list will be the way we make a decision next meeting on keeping to Wayland by default
14:38:40 <stickster> anything else on Wayland we need to decide today?
14:39:07 <stickster> oh, one other thing...
14:39:21 <stickster> #action stickster make sure WaylandRelated tracker is referenced in Common Bugs page for F25
14:40:25 <stickster> #topic Shotwell / GNOME Photos
14:40:33 <stickster> #nick mcatanzaro
14:41:23 <stickster> mcatanzaro asked for this item -- to see what the prospects are for the default to change here
14:41:46 <kalev> I'd like to note that after a long inactivity, shotwell now has proper maintainance upstream again
14:42:05 <stickster> I think the last time we spoke about this... correct me if I'm wrong... was that importing from a device was the most critical missing feature for GNOME Photos, even though that's on roadmap for 3.24 right now
14:42:49 <stickster> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=680834 says that https://git.gnome.org/browse/tracker/commit/?id=614589d was pushed
14:43:16 <kalev> is there a need to even ship a photo manager app by default? could we just get away with keeping eog (viewer) and dropping shotwell (manager) and not shipping any photo manager at all and letting users install whatever they want through gnome-software?
14:44:03 <mclasen> its an old debate
14:44:47 <mclasen> on the one side, you have the proponents of the kitchen sink, on the other side the proponents of the uncluttered overview
14:45:27 <kalev> yeah :)
14:46:58 <stickster> I don't really have an opinion here... as a user, I like the convenience of sticking an SD card in my laptop and seeing a photo manager come up.
14:47:36 <mclasen> ask kalev pointed out, shotwell is maintained again now, so maybe the question is a bit less pressing
14:47:44 <mclasen> kalev: do we get releases for it, too ?
14:47:55 <kalev> mclasen: yup, regularly, got one this week
14:48:03 <mclasen> nice
14:48:34 <mclasen> a success story for open source: somebody else can pick it up
14:48:52 * stickster likes it
14:49:23 <stickster> #proposed Drop the "change default" discussion for F25 at this point, let's see where things stand next release
14:49:36 <mclasen> +1
14:49:39 <kalev> +1
14:49:46 <stickster> #info Shotwell is actively maintained, and has two new releases in the past month already
14:50:09 <stickster> otaylor: rdieter: ^^^^
14:50:26 <rdieter> +1
14:50:28 <stickster> I'm +1 to my own proposal :-)
14:50:43 <otaylor> +1 if we still don't have importing from a device in gnome-photos
14:50:58 <stickster> According to the bug we don't.
14:51:18 <stickster> it's on the way next release supposedly, so we may be talking about this in a few months :-)
14:52:01 <stickster> #agreed Drop the "change default" discussion for photo handling in F25, revisit for F26 based on state of gnome-photos (+1: 5, 0: 0, -1: 0)
14:52:14 <stickster> #topic Non-working sushi
14:52:29 <mclasen> ah, good reminder
14:52:39 <mclasen> I wrote a patch for that, should make sure it lands and get a release out
14:52:47 <stickster> So this came up late last wek, that sushi was broken on Wayland, I couldn't tell if that was "ugh, big iceberg issue" or, "routine bug, par for the course"
14:52:56 <stickster> ha, sounds like the second then :-)
14:53:00 <stickster> mclasen++
14:53:20 <stickster> #info mclasen has patch
14:53:37 <stickster> #action mclasen land patch and get a release out (or engage minion) ;-)
14:53:53 * stickster hits "That was easy" button
14:53:54 * mclasen looks around
14:54:05 <stickster> for your one minion
14:54:34 <stickster> https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/36/b1/6c/36b16cc68bbbca07f1c37183112de693.gif
14:54:50 <stickster> #topic All other business (open floor)
14:55:01 <stickster> 5 minutes remaining, anything else?
14:56:16 <stickster> seems like not, closing in 30 sec. Just type '!' to interject :-)
14:57:05 <stickster> Thanks for coming everyone! Have a great day :-)
14:57:08 <stickster> (or night)
14:57:10 <stickster> #endmeeting