15:00:03 <stickster> #startmeeting Workstation WG
15:00:03 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Sep 14 15:00:03 2016 UTC.  The chair is stickster. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:00:03 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:00:03 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation_wg'
15:00:06 <stickster> #meetingname workstation
15:00:06 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation'
15:00:08 <stickster> #topic Roll call
15:00:10 <stickster> .hello pfrields
15:00:10 <zodbot> stickster: pfrields 'Paul W. Frields' <stickster@gmail.com>
15:00:37 <kalev> oh, is it now?
15:00:43 <kalev> an hour earlier than I thought, good :)
15:01:23 <stickster> :-)
15:01:48 <otaylor> .hello otaylor
15:01:48 <zodbot> otaylor: otaylor 'Owen Taylor' <otaylor@redhat.com>
15:02:26 <mclasen> .hello mclasen
15:02:27 <zodbot> mclasen: mclasen 'Matthias Clasen' <mclasen@redhat.com>
15:03:52 <rdieter> .hello rdieter
15:03:53 <zodbot> rdieter: rdieter 'Rex Dieter' <rdieter@math.unl.edu>
15:03:55 <stickster> #chair kalev otaylor mclasen rdieter
15:03:55 <zodbot> Current chairs: kalev mclasen otaylor rdieter stickster
15:04:40 <stickster> #topic Workstation OStree delivery for Beta -- are requirements met?
15:04:45 <stickster> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/WorkstationOstree
15:04:49 <stickster> #link https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/ticket/6399
15:04:53 <stickster> #link https://pagure.io/releng/issue/107
15:04:56 <stickster> #link https://public.etherpad-mozilla.org/p/WSosTreeRequirements
15:05:23 <mclasen> cschaller coming online now
15:05:29 <stickster> dgilmore: FYI Worskstation WG is meeting now on OStree delivery for Beta, to see if requirements are met
15:05:35 <mcatanzaro> (hi)
15:05:51 <cschalle> hi
15:06:06 <mclasen> I was probably supported to provide a status for this, but I don't have much
15:06:07 <otaylor> mclasen: Do we know how the config for https://kojipkgs.fedoraproject.org/compose/ostree/rawhide/ is maintained?
15:06:07 <stickster> #chair mcatanzaro cschalle
15:06:07 <zodbot> Current chairs: cschalle kalev mcatanzaro mclasen otaylor rdieter stickster
15:06:27 <mclasen> otaylor: it lives on pagure, let me find the repo
15:06:28 * stickster will limit this to stop at :30 so we can do Wayland status
15:06:55 <otaylor> mclasen: Is it https://pagure.io/workstation-ostree-config ?
15:07:12 <mclasen> yep
15:07:45 <dgilmore> stickster: okay
15:08:07 <dgilmore> otaylor: it is that repo
15:08:13 <otaylor> dgilmore: thanks
15:08:17 <stickster> mclasen: That fourth link above purports to be the requirements for changes to processes/tools so that we can be offering a prototype/preview of the ostree based Workstation
15:08:39 <dgilmore> otaylor: we have not had any f25 trees
15:08:46 <dgilmore> because the f25 branch is missing
15:08:50 <mclasen> so, the main thing I haven't gotten an update on is the status of having an installer, and of merging back work from here: https://pagure.io/atomic-ws
15:09:06 <mclasen> dgilmore: in the workstation-ostree-config repo ?
15:09:11 <dgilmore> mclasen: yes
15:09:18 <mclasen> ok, I'll get that created asap
15:09:25 <dgilmore> I asked for it and for releng to get acces to the repo this week
15:09:36 <dgilmore> I got access sbut apparently the branch was not created
15:09:41 <dgilmore> so I will do so today
15:09:43 <mclasen> that would be useful (access for you)
15:09:46 <mclasen> thanks!
15:10:09 <dgilmore> we have installer configs
15:10:29 <dgilmore> https://pagure.io/fedora-lorax-templates
15:10:31 <mclasen> oh, good
15:10:33 <dgilmore> they are in there
15:10:53 <mclasen> we are in better shape than I thought
15:13:10 <mclasen> with the branch in place, we'll have an f25 image with an installer for the beta, I assume ?
15:13:18 <mclasen> does that answer the question ?
15:13:32 <dgilmore> mclasen: well it needs to be configured
15:13:41 <dgilmore> and we need to test that it works
15:13:44 <walters> i'm not sure i want to promote this yet since the fedora ostree handling is not very good yet
15:13:47 <dgilmore> but we can have it yes
15:13:53 <walters> among other things i'd like people to see static deltas
15:13:59 <mclasen> walters: it will be labeled as experimental
15:14:00 <walters> which really requires changing the cadence
15:14:33 <kalev> what does "cadence" mean? too difficult english for me, sorry :)
15:14:52 <otaylor> walters: what do you mean by that? updating a branch periodically and generating a static delta between the commits on that branch?
15:14:53 <stickster> walters: just to be clear, the "promotion" will be limited to noting in the release announcement that we have a Workstation in an experimental form factor for the intrepid
15:14:54 <walters> have a branch that updates once every two weeks e.g.
15:15:10 <dgilmore> walters: that is not what was asked for
15:15:24 <otaylor> dgilmore: No, what you gave us is what we wanted!
15:15:27 <stickster> kalev: "cadence" == rate of recurring release in this case
15:15:35 <kalev> ahh, thanks stickster
15:15:50 <stickster> kalev: think of it like "speed of the drumbeat" :-)
15:16:07 <otaylor> dgilmore: First we need to know we're building something that works before we can worry about how people efficiently update it
15:16:11 <dgilmore> the repo will update with updates pushes
15:16:12 <mclasen> dgilmore: will the current setup update the ostree post-release at all ?
15:16:21 <mclasen> continuously ?
15:16:29 <dgilmore> mclasen: we need to have bodhi update the repo with updates
15:16:39 <dgilmore> its some configuration in bodhi
15:16:53 <dgilmore> which to me is in the scope of what you asked for
15:17:20 <dgilmore> mclasen: I think walters wants to have regular new updaed installer dvds
15:17:36 <walters> (which is what I'm doing in CentOS CI right now)
15:17:36 <dgilmore> which you explictly said you did not want according to the notes I have
15:18:06 <stickster> dgilmore: right, line 22-25 in https://public.etherpad-mozilla.org/p/WSosTreeRequirements
15:18:22 <dgilmore> the request That I have is to amke the installer as part of the GA release, and all updates handled via ostree repo updates
15:18:33 <dgilmore> stickster: yep
15:18:37 <stickster> that's how I read it too
15:19:08 <dgilmore> otaylor: mclasen: that is what you want?
15:19:45 * stickster notes this is just one of a number of reasons why we should not refer to this as an "Atomic Workstation"
15:19:58 <otaylor> dgilmore: Yes, that's what we want. I think that walters is saying that *eventually* we don't want every rpm-ostree compose to go directly to users
15:20:07 <walters> i have already had to fix multiple issues in the installer
15:20:26 <kalev> I think it would make a lot of sense to follow the same release system as we have right now for regular fedora, with media together with GA and QA signing it off, and then updates afterwards
15:20:32 <kalev> at least initially
15:20:34 <stickster> kalev++
15:21:03 <mclasen> yes, since that is what we asked for, we should be happy to get just that for f25
15:21:06 <stickster> So, to the question asked in the /TOPIC... are we at a point where requirements are *nearly* met?
15:21:17 <walters> just to sanity check, i am the only person who is running and debugging this right now, right?
15:21:24 <mclasen> respinning the installer or batching updates would be separate topics
15:21:33 <otaylor> walters: I was running it for a few weeks, then I got off the train, need to get back on
15:21:34 <mclasen> walters: I'm not currently running it, thats true
15:21:53 <mclasen> I have used your installer successfully, at least once
15:22:17 <otaylor> stickster: I think the releng requirements are met, other than building installer images
15:22:40 <stickster> otaylor: OK, and IIUC from above, that requires the branch creation so dgilmore can go ahead with that part, yes?
15:23:13 <mclasen> yes, thats my understanding
15:23:56 <otaylor> stickster: In terms of whether we want to advertise it in the release announcement, that depends on other things than the releng bits
15:24:30 <stickster> otaylor: Yes, also on how wide a net we want to cast in terms of people trying it. Because that means an unknown bug input too
15:24:33 <otaylor> stickster: namely, making the experience smooth for the bits we expect to work, and being comfortable with people trying it out without the bits that we don't expect to work
15:24:40 <stickster> exactly
15:25:24 <stickster> dgilmore: where exactly does that branch need to be created, and who's resopnsible for that?
15:25:48 * stickster fires his typist again... bugger keeps coming back like a bad penny :-D
15:26:42 <dgilmore> stickster: in the pagure repo
15:26:47 <dgilmore> stickster: I am on it now
15:26:53 <stickster> Ah, OK
15:27:04 <stickster> atomic-ws?
15:27:05 <dgilmore> the branch now exists
15:27:11 <stickster> ha, cool, no #action needed then :-)
15:27:12 <dgilmore> it just needs a bunch of adjustments
15:27:30 <stickster> or maybe...
15:27:34 <dgilmore> stickster: https://pagure.io/workstation-ostree-config is the source
15:27:44 <dgilmore> I am working on the adjustments
15:27:48 <stickster> #action dgilmore make adjustments in Pagure repo workstation-ostree-config to accommodate required installer builds
15:28:03 <stickster> #info Requirements are nearly met at this point, looks on track for F25!
15:28:14 <stickster> dgilmore: thanks very much for being here and helping with this section of the meeting :-)
15:28:19 <stickster> dgilmore++
15:28:31 <dgilmore> stickster: no problem
15:28:33 <stickster> 2 minutes left before we need to move on, anything else?
15:29:15 <stickster> #topic Wayland status for Beta
15:29:26 <stickster> #link https://bugzilla.redhat.com/showdependencytree.cgi?id=1372055&hide_resolved=1
15:29:59 <stickster> #info First and foremost, thank you to mclasen for the work of organizing the tracker :-)
15:31:11 <stickster> mclasen: So if I read the statuses right, two of these bugs are fixed either in Fedora, or upstream and coming shortly to Fedora...
15:31:15 <stickster> one is uncertain whether it can be reproduced (I couldn't on current F25 Workstation, and neither could at least one other person)...
15:31:29 <mclasen> the keyborad-display bug is fixed upstream or will be very shortly
15:31:34 <stickster> and one looks like it might need some work (https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1256443)
15:31:56 * stickster notes this last one ^ is the one mclasen is referring to
15:32:02 <stickster> that's great to hear
15:32:14 <mclasen> the 2 gnome-shell bugs should be fixed in 3.21.92
15:32:31 <stickster> mclasen: There is one other bug which looks like it's been accepted as a F25 Final blocker, the file-roller issue, but that should just be a matter of forcing the X backend while it gets fixed
15:32:43 <stickster> #link https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1374321
15:32:49 <mclasen> the environment bug, I'm not sure. halfline explained the plan, but I don't know that the patches have made it into systemd
15:33:20 <mclasen> stickster: I'll find somebody to do that file-roller change today
15:33:30 <stickster> halfline: if you're around feel free to poke your head in here :-) ... if I read the bug correctly, there was a fix to gdm which works around the issue, but I don't claim to be an expert here
15:33:36 <mcatanzaro> If we don't know how to reproduce a bug, it should be removed from the blocker list
15:33:48 <mclasen> there's a few upstream bugs that I would consider blockers, that are not reflected here
15:33:49 <kalev> is it just putting a g_set_env call in main() ? I can do that in that case
15:34:00 <stickster> mclasen: Can you #link them here for reference?
15:34:48 <stickster> Also, I wonder whether there is a running list of apps where the X backend is forced, so they can be knocked off in 3.23 timeframe where possible
15:34:55 <stickster> (or later)
15:35:12 <stickster> that's more an upstream question, of course, but would be good to know
15:35:13 <mclasen> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/release-team/2016-September/msg00036.html
15:35:17 <mclasen> has a bunch
15:36:21 <stickster> mclasen: cool... if I read that right, these are patches coming in as freeze breaks upstream, so it's not like they're in limbo
15:36:34 <mclasen> and this: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=771117
15:36:46 <mclasen> all of these should be fixed in 3.22
15:36:56 <stickster> mclasen: anything you know of where there's no patch or ETA, and thus worrisome?
15:37:20 <mclasen> the environment bug is the one I would think of first
15:37:31 <mclasen> there's patches, but not entirely clear what the solution will be in the end
15:38:41 <mclasen> kalev: gdk_set_allowed_backends ("x11");
15:39:03 <kalev> mclasen: ahh, let me do that, thanks
15:39:14 <stickster> hrrm, I see -- I did misread the bug for that one
15:41:11 <mclasen> stickster: another thing I didn't mention is that wacom tablet configuration missed our 3.22 freezes upstream
15:41:25 <mclasen> so we're looking at landing that in f25 as backports
15:41:38 <kalev> is it possible to break the freezes upstream after .0?
15:41:58 <mclasen> it'll certainly make translators unhappy
15:41:58 <kalev> or too much translator work like this+
15:42:14 <stickster> mclasen: AFAIK we don't have tablets as a criterion for the general Fedora desktop, but even if we did, the fallback to X still works AFAIK... I did it the other day
15:42:27 <stickster> *(that's a lot of AFAIKs, sorry)
15:42:41 <mcatanzaro> But it looks like we're in broadly good shape
15:42:54 <stickster> mclasen: So we're really relying on halfline and systemd upstream to work out a solution where environment gets passed correctly for Wayland
15:43:09 <mclasen> we're in good shape, is my assessment too
15:43:43 <mclasen> yes. I think halfline ran off for lunch already
15:43:53 <stickster> we can catch up with him later
15:45:22 * stickster notes someone raised this bug too: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1373169 -- but it doesn't seem clear that it's happening everywhere
15:45:46 <mcatanzaro> That would be another good one for halfline
15:46:21 <stickster> It does, however, happen here for me :-)
15:46:40 <stickster> killing the session let me login again but that's pretty ugly
15:46:46 <mclasen> sessions not ending properly is not wayland-specific, unfortunately
15:46:52 <stickster> *nod
15:46:54 <mcatanzaro> Also the one where you cannot paste into the modal password dialog is quite unfortunate, do you think you could find someone with time for that mclasen?
15:47:15 <stickster> mclasen: I think we can safely trust that will be worked assiduously :-)
15:47:35 <mclasen> I thought I had marked that for 3.22 already. I'll find somebody
15:47:41 <mcatanzaro> Thanks
15:47:57 <mclasen> mcatanzaro: how far along is the webkit clipboard ?
15:48:25 <mcatanzaro> mclasen: garnacho has it working, he just has to get it past code review :)
15:49:23 <mclasen> right, ok
15:50:27 <mcatanzaro> I'm +1 for sticking with Wayland... i.e. no action ;)
15:50:42 <stickster> So I'd like to propose this: #agreed The WG team has seen no issues that would prevent us from going forward with Wayland as default -- no action required
15:50:54 <mclasen> +1
15:50:55 <stickster> mattdm: ^ fyi
15:50:57 <otaylor> +1
15:51:04 <stickster> +1 on my own proposal ;-)
15:51:45 <kalev> +1
15:51:50 <mattdm> exciting!
15:52:07 <stickster> cschalle: rdieter: ?
15:52:34 <stickster> hopefully they are awestruck that Wayland is doing this well :-)
15:52:52 <stickster> please get your votes in guys, we have one more short topic to cover
15:53:13 <mcatanzaro> Who wants to blog about it, cschalle?  mattdm, can you talk to marketing team to make some news?
15:53:14 <cschalle> +1
15:53:22 <cschalle> sure, I can do that
15:53:37 <stickster> (+1: 6, 0: 0, -1: 0) so far -- so we're good to go at this point.
15:54:03 <stickster> #agreed The WG team has seen no issues that would prevent us from going forward with Wayland as default -- no action required (+1: 6, 0: 0, -1: 0)
15:54:15 <kalev> mclasen: I put the file-roller oneliner patch in https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=770333
15:54:17 <stickster> Nice work team!
15:54:46 <stickster> #action mclasen + stickster follow up on noted bugs as discussed earlier
15:54:49 <kalev> mclasen: sorry, didn't realize in time it was a gtk+ bug and not a file-roller bug, woops
15:54:53 <stickster> #topic Deliverables for F25
15:54:56 <stickster> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Program_Management/ReleaseBlocking/Fedora25#Workstation
15:55:22 <stickster> Jan Kurik asked early this morning whether we could review this list. So far I see at least one thing missing which is installer images for the ostree-based Workstation, as we discussed earlier
15:55:28 <rdieter> stickster: sorry, I got pulled away @dayjob for a bit, consider me +1 too
15:55:35 <stickster> those would be on here as "non release blocking"
15:55:39 <stickster> rdieter: no worries sir!
15:55:50 <stickster> #info previous vote is now (+1: 7, 0: 0, -1: 0)
15:56:24 <mclasen> kalev: I consider that use of custom clipboards a file-roller bug...
15:57:04 <stickster> I don't think we know an image path in the distribution tree for these images yet, and I don't know what the testing commitment is based on the requirements we looked at earlier
15:57:22 <kalev> mclasen: yeah, I don't disagree, just thought that it gets more easily accepted to file-roller upstream with this wording
15:57:26 <stickster> #action stickster to follow up with jkurik to note missing ostree install image
15:57:39 <stickster> Are there any other deliverables expected besides that, which change this list from F24?
15:58:31 <stickster> mclasen: otaylor: ^ anything I missed?
15:59:18 <otaylor> stickster: Don't think so (the ostree images should be non-blocking, fairly obviously)
15:59:24 <stickster> correct, noted above
15:59:28 * mclasen doesn't have anything
15:59:41 <stickster> OK, I'll edit the wiki and follow up with jkurik as above
15:59:53 <stickster> that takes care of this topic :-)
15:59:56 <stickster> #topic Open floor
16:00:04 <stickster> Now you have a whole 30 sec to talk about other stuff :-)
16:00:10 <mclasen> kalev: thanks for the quick patch; I'm trying to get a file-roller release for 3.22, will try to include that
16:00:58 <stickster> #action stickster fix Fedora calendar entry for this meeting
16:01:09 <kalev> mclasen: nice, thanks
16:01:10 <stickster> OK, I think we can take everything else back to #fedora-workstation
16:01:14 <stickster> Thanks for coming, everyone
16:01:16 <stickster> #endmeeting