14:01:06 <stickster> #startmeeting Workstation WG
14:01:06 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Nov  6 14:01:06 2017 UTC.  The chair is stickster. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:01:06 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:01:06 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation_wg'
14:01:09 <stickster> #meetingname workstation
14:01:09 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation'
14:01:11 <stickster> #topic Roll call
14:01:14 <stickster> .hello pfrields
14:01:15 <zodbot> stickster: pfrields 'Paul W. Frields' <stickster@gmail.com>
14:01:27 <mcatanzaro> .hello mcatanzaro
14:01:30 <zodbot> mcatanzaro: Sorry, but you don't exist
14:01:37 <mcatanzaro> .hello catanzaro
14:01:38 <zodbot> mcatanzaro: catanzaro 'Michael Catanzaro' <mcatanzaro@gnome.org>
14:01:50 <stickster> #chair juhp kalev mcatanzaro ryanlerch
14:01:50 <zodbot> Current chairs: juhp kalev mcatanzaro ryanlerch stickster
14:01:57 * stickster goes off to find a few other people who should be around
14:02:04 <ryanlerch> .hello ryanlerch
14:02:04 <zodbot> ryanlerch: ryanlerch 'Ryan Lerch' <rlerch@redhat.com>
14:02:11 <juhp_> .hello petersen
14:02:12 <zodbot> juhp_: petersen 'Jens Petersen' <petersen@redhat.com>
14:02:13 <kalev> .hello kalev
14:02:15 <zodbot> kalev: kalev 'Kalev Lember' <klember@redhat.com>
14:03:08 <mcatanzaro> stickster: FYI, jbicha just noticed and reported: https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/30#comment-477205 <-- no color emoji support in F27 still
14:03:18 <mcatanzaro> I didn't add the meeting tag to that issue, but maybe we should discuss it again
14:03:20 <mclasen> .hello mclasen
14:03:21 <zodbot> mclasen: mclasen 'Matthias Clasen' <mclasen@redhat.com>
14:04:07 <stickster> mcatanzaro: yes, let's do that first.
14:04:14 <stickster> #chair mclasen
14:04:14 <zodbot> Current chairs: juhp kalev mcatanzaro mclasen ryanlerch stickster
14:05:10 <otaylor> .hello otaylor
14:05:11 <zodbot> otaylor: otaylor 'Owen Taylor' <otaylor@redhat.com>
14:05:41 <stickster> #chair otaylor
14:05:41 <zodbot> Current chairs: juhp kalev mcatanzaro mclasen otaylor ryanlerch stickster
14:05:54 <stickster> #topic Color emoji not in F27
14:05:57 <cschalle> .hello cschalle
14:05:57 <zodbot> cschalle: Sorry, but you don't exist
14:06:15 <stickster> try '.hello uraeus' ?  It uses FAS username IIRC
14:06:21 <stickster> #chair cschalle
14:06:21 <zodbot> Current chairs: cschalle juhp kalev mcatanzaro mclasen otaylor ryanlerch stickster
14:07:19 <stickster> #info mcatanzaro noted the comps and package updates have not been picked up, could be due to not having a freeze exception bug filed?
14:07:23 <stickster> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/30#comment-477205
14:08:21 <mclasen> the bodhi update has been in testing for 2 months ?
14:08:23 <mcatanzaro> stickster: I don't know about comps. The package update: yes, we were already in final freeze when it was submitted to stable two weeks ago.
14:08:27 <mcatanzaro> mclasen: Yes
14:08:36 <mcatanzaro> mclasen: Autopush was disabled because it received negative karma
14:08:43 <mclasen> swell
14:08:48 <mcatanzaro> So hadess had to send it manually, which he did two weeks ago, after final freeze
14:09:02 <mcatanzaro> This is not the first time we have lost important updates, btw, due to maintainers not noticing that autopush is turned off
14:09:30 <cschalle> can we set it up to be zero day update?
14:09:32 <mcatanzaro> mattdm posted in the issue: "Please file a FE bug immediately and we'll see if we can get it in."
14:09:54 <mcatanzaro> cschalle: We don't need to do anything for it to be a zero day update, it will go to stable immediately
14:10:02 <stickster> I assume that means we don't have an accepted RC yet
14:10:24 <mattdm> When things are important, we shouldn't count on autopush anyway.
14:11:29 <mcatanzaro> IMO we should not block release on this, but if there's a chance it can go in, a freeze exception would be great.
14:11:54 <mclasen> developer attention is a limited resource
14:12:08 <mattdm> So is QA attention :)
14:12:18 <stickster> mcatanzaro: mattdm: wouldn't the comps change fix this *without* overriding the -1 here?
14:12:21 <kalev> I don't think we'll need the update if the comps pull request gets merged
14:12:24 <stickster> or is this -1 not legitimate?
14:12:28 <stickster> kalev++
14:12:44 <mclasen> it is just an opinion, without arguments to support it
14:12:46 <mattdm> the -1 in the bug?
14:12:54 <stickster> mattdm: in the bodhi update.
14:12:56 <mcatanzaro> stickster: The -1 is a difference in opinion as to the best way to implement the change... I agree that the Requires feels icky, but I think it is needed for upgrades
14:13:09 <mattdm> yeah, what mclasen says.
14:13:10 <mcatanzaro> The comps change is enough for fresh installs, but not enough to make upgrades work.
14:13:19 <mcatanzaro> So the update is more important IMO.
14:13:22 <mattdm> "Recommends" might also work, but that's bikeshedding
14:13:25 <mcatanzaro> (As that covers both.)
14:13:39 <mattdm> The package _already_ requires another font and icon themes
14:13:58 <kalev> as far as I know, for everybody who has the workstation comps group installed, they should get new additions to the group automatically when updating an older release
14:14:12 <stickster> Makes sense. OK, no qualms on the update here.
14:14:43 <mcatanzaro> kalev: How would that work? That has not been our understanding for a long time; we've frequently made decisions based on the assumption that something added to comps will not affect upgrades.
14:15:00 <stickster> kalev: can you file a FE bug for this? I'll touch base with #fedora-qa and also invoke mattdm there to see that it gets included in next RC
14:15:15 <mattdm> as far as attention: since this is a cool feature that users will notice, this probably should have been filed as a Change, and then PgM should watch the details
14:15:27 <kalev> stickster: sure, let me do that
14:15:48 * mclasen has no idea what PgM is
14:15:48 <stickster> #action kalev file FE bug to get bodhi update for gnome-themes-standard included
14:15:56 <stickster> PgM = Program Manager
14:16:23 <stickster> For us that's the fabulous Jan Kurik
14:16:40 <mcatanzaro> "Release status of the Fedora 27 Final is NO-GO." <-- sent 6 minutes ago :(
14:16:45 <mcatanzaro> So we'll be able to have color emoji for sure
14:16:48 <stickster> yup
14:16:55 <stickster> #action stickster talk to Fedora QA to make sure FE bug can be included in next RC
14:17:04 <juhp_> mattdm: +1
14:17:13 <stickster> kalev: just hit me back with a BZ# in #fedora-workstation once it's there
14:17:18 <mattdm> We're asking Jan to get more involved in sheparding changes through to closure, so that should help address the developer attention as scarce resource problem
14:17:37 <mattdm> But that's more for similar things in the future, not for right now
14:17:38 * mclasen won't even try to understand that abbreviation
14:17:41 <stickster> Well, I'm not sure that addresses the *problem* as much as the symptom
14:17:50 <stickster> But I get what you mean
14:18:18 <mattdm> (mclasen: PM can be "project manager", "product manager", "program manager", so for whatever reason "program manager" gets a "g" to distinguish)
14:18:27 <mattdm> (I don't make this stuff up. Just going along with convention!)
14:18:57 <mclasen> we did have a workstation ticket for color emoji - but that is not the right list to put it on ? so we need to double the paperwork ?
14:19:22 <mattdm> if "paperwork" means "communicating with other people", then I guess yes?
14:19:45 <mattdm> But Jan can help with the paperwork aspect too. Just need to bring him in.
14:20:01 * mattdm signs jkurik up for stuff while he's not here :)
14:20:35 <stickster> Also, there's an aspect here that we could have probably resolved that ticket better just in the WG
14:21:03 <stickster> Live and learn
14:21:49 <stickster> I think we have this handled atm, anything else to cover here?
14:22:52 * stickster notes we have two more issues currently tagged 'meeting' and both are sitting in an uncertain state not ready for any WG decision per se
14:25:28 * stickster ponders for a moment how to handle
14:26:18 * mcatanzaro still wants to remove setroubleshoot without replacement
14:26:21 <mcatanzaro> ;)
14:26:40 <mcatanzaro> I don't expect anybody to volunteer to do the work to integrate its functionality into ABRT
14:27:17 <kalev> stickster, mattdm: FE request: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1509996
14:27:21 <stickster> Thanks kalev
14:28:07 <stickster> mcatanzaro: That issue makes me sad because it feels like a lost opportunity to get some developer teams to work together.
14:28:31 <mcatanzaro> It could still be. I don't know how issues are prioritized within RH. ;)
14:30:21 * stickster tries to pull some strings
14:32:23 <stickster> mcatanzaro: I'm going to see if I can persuade some activity here so we can move forward :-)
14:33:01 <stickster> not sure if we can make this happen by F28 but it's not impossible
14:33:28 <mclasen> teams ?
14:33:28 <stickster> what needs to happen is people getting out of their "work on our own stuff only" comfort zone
14:33:53 <stickster> it's not about making the app better, it's about making the whole flow better for users
14:34:08 <stickster> mclasen: I don't understand your query
14:35:02 * mclasen drops it
14:35:55 <stickster> Oh I see -- that was in response to me earlier. I see it would be a good opportunity for the SELinux and the desktop/GNOME folks to work together on making the user experience way better.
14:36:00 <ryanlerch> stickster: is there any sort of ticket / bug for this task yet at all (just out of interest...)
14:36:18 <stickster> ryanlerch: We have https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/24
14:36:28 <stickster> Oops, I never topic'd this.
14:36:36 <stickster> #topic setroubleshooter path forward
14:36:39 <stickster> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/24
14:37:25 <stickster> #action stickster talk to cschalle, mgrepl, et al. to see if we can have some time invested to get closer to https://wiki.gnome.org/Design/OS/ProblemReporting
14:38:22 <stickster> #topic All other business
14:38:53 <stickster> OK, open floor -- if anyone has anything further, you're welcome to bring it up now. If it's a decision or involves work, you should also file an issue so we can track it.
14:41:46 <kalev> I have a topic -- GNOME 3.26.2 megaupdate
14:42:32 <kalev> 3.26.2 is the final planned GNOME update where we put out a coordinated releases
14:42:53 <mcatanzaro> You could get a freeze exception for it TBH
14:42:54 <kalev> but it only came out last week and as such, didn't make the F27 GA cut
14:43:11 <stickster> mattdm: ^ FYI
14:43:16 <kalev> we have it in updates testing now and I was wondering how people feel, is this something that we should ask a FE for
14:43:17 <mcatanzaro> Better IMO to do it now and find problems if it breaks something, than do it next week and let all users get the problems anyway....
14:43:21 <mcatanzaro> But whatever
14:43:22 <kalev> as we just slipped a week.
14:43:44 <kalev> mcatanzaro: yes, I am leaning that way too
14:43:50 <mcatanzaro> We just don't want to risk another slip
14:44:09 <mcatanzaro> But that's a quirk of our QA process. Our users are going to be affected by any potential regressions no matter what.
14:44:39 <mcatanzaro> Actually kalev, I changed my mind already... I saw someone complaining on reddit that 3.16.2 broke screen unlock pretty badly. Maybe safer to wait.
14:44:50 <stickster> any change adds risk at this point
14:45:10 <stickster> kalev: do you have a bodhi update URL for the megaupdate?
14:45:10 <mattdm> yeah, let's ship this thing
14:45:25 <stickster> kalev: just so anyone here interested can at least test?
14:45:40 <kalev> stickster: https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2017-040483b1f1
14:45:48 * stickster would be happy to try it and file bugs, if nothing else to avoid a zero-day uggh
14:46:25 <stickster> #info Please test out the GNOME 3.26.2 megaupdate at https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2017-040483b1f1
14:48:58 <stickster> Anything else to cover?
14:49:55 <kalev> nothing more from me
14:51:34 <ryanlerch> nothing here.
14:52:12 <stickster> OK, per usual I need to go prep for another meeting, so that's a wrap!
14:52:19 <stickster> Thanks for coming, everyone.
14:52:20 <stickster> #endmeeting