13:00:30 #startmeeting Fedora Workstation WG 13:00:31 Meeting started Mon Jul 15 13:00:30 2019 UTC. 13:00:31 This meeting is logged and archived in a public location. 13:00:31 The chair is cmurf. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 13:00:31 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 13:00:31 The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_workstation_wg' 13:00:35 #meetingname workstation 13:00:35 The meeting name has been set to 'workstation' 13:00:45 #topic Roll call 13:01:21 .hello catanzaro 13:01:22 mcatanzaro: catanzaro 'Michael Catanzaro' 13:01:32 .hello2 13:01:33 langdon: langdon 'Langdon White' 13:02:22 o/ 13:03:00 #chair mcatanzaro langdon 13:03:00 Current chairs: cmurf langdon mcatanzaro 13:03:11 Hi aday 13:03:42 We could use a few more people. mclasen juhp[m] ? 13:04:06 kalev? 13:05:06 Missing cschalle I see. And otaylor is on leave. 13:05:08 * sgallagh lurks 13:06:04 mcatanzaro: I'm here 13:06:05 hi, me and mclasen got a confict atm, so we will not be able to follow this meeting very closely 13:06:37 Seems I'm the one who missed cschalle's name in the list :D 13:08:15 #chair kalev 13:08:15 Current chairs: cmurf kalev langdon mcatanzaro 13:08:41 #topic Previous meeting followup 13:08:43 #info Anacanda accepted swap on ZRAM for LiveOS change 13:08:51 #info Anacanda accepted swap on ZRAM for LiveOS change 13:08:54 oops 13:08:57 #undo 13:08:58 Removing item from minutes: INFO by cmurf at 13:08:51 : Anacanda accepted swap on ZRAM for LiveOS change 13:09:04 #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/56 13:09:20 So this is pretty much done, need to check when it lands in Rawhide. More info is in the ticket. 13:09:49 There is one additional change to drop the legacy swap stuff in live base kickstart, I have a PR for that planned but not yet issued. 13:10:28 That's the only followup I've got. 13:11:12 I don't think anyone else here besides you really understand what this is about :) 13:12:07 Haha, well feel free to ask questions, otherwise I'll save the bandwidth for when there's a problem. :D 13:12:15 maybe just close the workstation wg ticket? seems like there's just implementation details to work out 13:12:35 unless you need it to track the work 13:12:37 Yeah I've got that pending also once I do the live base ks PR. 13:12:57 And make sure I haven't broken anything. 13:13:47 #topic Announcements 13:13:51 Got a few noteworthy dates... 13:13:58 #info Fedora 31 schedule. Self-contained change deadline is on Jul 23. All other change deadlines have past. Mass rebuild Jul 24. Branch on Aug 13. 13:14:34 Fedora QA meeting noted that the changeset for Fedora 31 "doesn't look too scary". 13:15:19 #info Flock, August 8 in Budapest 13:15:23 thats the best note :) 13:15:24 #link https://flocktofedora.org/ 13:15:35 "not too scary" :) 13:15:36 Anyone going to Flock? Sadly I'm not. 13:15:47 I'm not 13:15:58 adamw brings some of the best comedy :) 13:16:07 i am 13:16:10 * sgallagh will be there 13:16:47 And actually that's August 8-11. 13:17:16 Got one other QA item of interest. 13:17:23 #info whether to no longer block on failure to boot from optical installation media (DVDs) 13:17:29 #link https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/RAQ73U7AQ3QDF3MGNLH2TSJXQRTS3Y4K/ 13:17:52 Gist there is it's a pain to manually test optical media (actual physical media) for installs. 13:18:25 I bring it up here in case Workstation WG has any concern about dropping the criterion. It doesn't mean this is expected to break anytime soon. 13:18:28 * mcatanzaro doesn't care about optical media 13:18:35 Just that if it did break, it's not a release blocking bug. 13:18:49 well.. and the test is dropped? 13:18:56 or just the test doesn't release block? 13:19:10 are we still handing out DVDs conferences? 13:19:15 are we still handing out DVDs at conferences? 13:19:38 if so, it might be best not to break DVDs :) 13:19:57 i think the council has been pushing drop the production of them.. but i can't remember whther the last burn went through or not 13:20:08 I don't know who handles making DVDs, maybe ambassadors? 13:20:10 kalev, coasters, you mean? 13:20:15 haha :) 13:20:18 * aday runs 13:20:20 im pretty sure mindshare pays for them 13:21:31 i can't find any tickets for them on the mindshare issue list (open or closed) .. but that seems like an error 13:21:41 mattdm is on the case as well, after his Flock slides are sorted, so this is mostly just an FYI for Workstation WG folks. 13:21:54 We don't really have to coordinate. 13:22:11 Any concerns, bring it up in that 84 email thread on the test@ list 13:22:31 thanks for the heads up! 13:22:38 Any other announcements, important dates, etc? 13:23:27 OK moving on. 13:23:37 #topic Automatically install the OpenH264 codecs 13:23:49 #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/84 13:24:23 kalev mentioned this was waiting on releng 13:24:33 (Maybe I should include the link line in the topic?) 13:24:49 What you're doing is fine IMO 13:25:23 Anyway I guess we still have plenty of time before F31, just need to make sure the needed releng work happens 13:25:32 Maybe kalev could poke them? 13:25:46 I just did earlier today in https://pagure.io/releng/issue/8439 13:26:25 On the one hand it's a bit annoying a lot of content doesn't play by default on Firefox out of the box on Fedora Workstation. 13:27:00 But on the other hand, a lot of content is garbage that I don't want to see run automatically anyway. 13:27:31 Well we probably want videos to be playable. Thanks kalev! 13:27:38 I agree. 13:28:10 So with this plus the AAC work we should be shaping up for MP4 to work out-of-the-box in F31? In both Firefox and anything using GStreamer? 13:28:21 Flash player will be disabled by default in Chrome 76+, target is this month. 13:28:28 Firefox isn't using gstreamer, as far as I know 13:28:40 That will start a big push by content developers to move to alternatives, I suspect. 13:29:18 But looks like Flash support won't be removed until Chrome 87+, target December 2020. 13:29:30 does flash player work in chrome now? it only works like 10% of the time anyway 13:29:55 It should work in Chrome. It's not included in Chromium. 13:30:06 kalev: Of course Firefox isn't using GStreamer... does that mean Firefox doesn't know how to use OpenH.264 directly for MP4 playback? 13:30:28 yeah.. i always get errors about it not being installed.. i assume the site is testing for it poorly or something 13:30:30 i.e. so does this benefit only GStreamer users, or does it work in Firefox too? 13:30:41 mcatanzaro: I am not sure. I think it used to know how to use openh264, but not sure about the status right now 13:32:31 we're also missing firefox side support to automatically install openh264, so it's far from working out of box 13:32:57 and flatpaked firefox makes it even more complicated 13:32:57 kalev: How does it get installed for GStreamer users? Or is that WIP too? 13:33:42 mcatanzaro: the gstreamer plugin install should be working already now. totem talks to gnome-software and then gnome-software asks if you want to enable the extra openh264 repo and install the plugin from there 13:34:06 Nice. 13:34:11 yep :) 13:34:18 cmurf: I guess that's all for this... anything else on the agenda? 13:34:48 ok moving on 13:35:00 #topic always update the bootloader on major upgrades 13:35:25 #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/97 13:35:48 I saw some fedora devel list discussion pass by, but haven't followed any of it 13:36:16 did the devel list discussion result in something you think is not good for workstation users? 13:36:33 No. I think it's necessary. 13:37:05 no, I mean, are you trying to get workstation wg to override something that the grub maintainers don't want to do? 13:37:11 just trying to understand what you are asking here :) 13:37:22 Javier agrees. I'm mainly taking it on because I know a bit about the issues, and also I have no problem taking heat off devs from P.O. users. 13:37:24 :D 13:37:29 ahh, great 13:37:47 I'm just trying to make sure there's a process. That we're deliberate. Everyone's informed. 13:37:58 I also think it would be good to have the bootloader updated after distro upgrades 13:38:07 And then that way when it happens, there's no way to claim, oh god you did this without discussion. 13:38:23 right, thanks for clarifying :) 13:38:27 For sure it should happen at least during major upgrades. 13:38:39 We're not certain yet there's a way to only do it during major upgrades. 13:38:56 e.g. on UEFI, the bootloader stuff gets updated anytime the RPMs get updated. 13:39:16 So how do we trigger a 'grub2-install' on BIOS, only on a major upgrade and not minor updates? Not yet certain. 13:39:39 And if we do it every minor update, does that unnecessarily make users with custom bootloader configs mad? Not certain. 13:40:00 sgallagh: do you know how to trigger scriptlets to only run on distro upgrades? 13:40:28 There's no *inherent* mechanism to do that. 13:40:35 cmurf: is the idea that rawhide users would just need to do it manually 13:40:40 if we don't have a mechanism, then we could create one 13:40:47 Since from RPM's perspective, there is no difference between that and a standard package update 13:40:58 But I can think of a few hacks to do it. 13:41:01 something like a drop in directory, /usr/lib/upgrades.d with scripts to run 13:41:19 and then dnf offline updater and packagekit offline updater could run it at the end of distro upgrade transactions 13:41:25 otaylor: I'd like to avoid that too; so if there is a way for fcX -> fcX+1 to be a trigger 13:41:33 that'd also work for Rawhide 13:41:33 Actually, the easiest way is probably a filetrigger... yeah, in a drop dir 13:42:02 If we say "Fedora takes responsibility for bootloaders to be up to date" then that means everyone including Rawhide 13:42:02 Doesn't need to be a dnf/pk change; we just need to have triggers in place. 13:42:08 RPM would handle that fine 13:43:11 OK I brought this up to Workstation WG first because the multiboot stuff, and custom bootloader stuff, affects almost exclusively desktop users. 13:43:20 Server people don't do dual boot; nor do cloud users. 13:43:43 So strictly speaking, the bootloader update change affects all Fedora editions and outputs including spins. 13:43:49 I think you are our bootloader expert, cmurf :) don't think anyone else here has such deep knowledge 13:43:57 Well, I have a couple dual-boot servers, but it's mostly because I'm experimenting with converting them to OStree :) 13:44:32 kalev: yeah I get that part, I just want to tackle the difficult user advocacy aspect here, not the rabbit hole of bootloader esoterics. 13:44:43 I don't think we should spend a ton of effort creating a custom mechanism to make update behavior differ between OS upgrades and normal updates, when BIOS is already a legacy thing anyway 13:45:07 We don't have to have full feature-parity with modern systems 13:45:34 mcatanzaro: Well, what I'm talking about is setting up a filetrigger mechanism to determine when the bootloader scriptlets should execute. 13:45:34 Updating the bootloader seems important, of course 13:45:45 mcatanzaro: which is why I'm OK with only updating BIOS bootloader at major upgrades, rather than minor upates like on UEFI 13:45:45 * mcatanzaro shrugs 13:45:51 We can then decide independently when those happen. 13:46:11 (So opting-in to having them always happen on an upgrade becomes a possible use-case, but it's not tied to it) 13:46:47 sgallagh: Right. And also a question is whether to bring everyone forward, or only new clean installs. 13:47:23 I'm kindof of the opinion that a future upgrade brings everyone into the new paradigm, with an opt out. 13:47:45 Lots of Fedora users only ever do upgrades, not clean installs. For years and years. Hence the problem. 13:47:51 * sgallagh nods 13:48:07 OK that's all I've got on this for now. 13:48:15 Yes, especially now that gnome-software nags users and provides and easy way to do a distro upgrade 13:48:30 kalev: Exactly, and agreed. 13:48:55 Also for comparison purposes, on Windows and macOS, users are never involved, even on an opt out basis, in bootloader related stuff. 13:49:14 They own the bootloader exclusively, not at all user domain. 13:50:03 Our users should trust we're doing this for good reasons for most users. 13:50:19 * kalev agrees. 13:50:37 #topic Open Floor 13:51:16 cmurf: +1 13:53:25 doesn't seem like much for open floor 13:54:02 * cmurf sets a 1 minute fuse... 13:54:27 yawn 13:54:33 Good morning everybody! 13:54:57 yeah time for another coffee 13:55:10 ok cya folks thanks for showing up! 13:55:14 #endmeeting