14:09:59 <Son_Goku> #startmeeting Workstation WG
14:09:59 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Nov  4 14:09:59 2019 UTC.
14:09:59 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
14:09:59 <zodbot> The chair is Son_Goku. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:09:59 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:09:59 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation_wg'
14:10:10 <Son_Goku> .hello ngompa
14:10:11 <zodbot> Son_Goku: ngompa 'Neal Gompa' <ngompa13@gmail.com>
14:10:18 <petersen> .hello2
14:10:19 <zodbot> petersen: petersen 'Jens Petersen' <petersen@redhat.com>
14:10:30 <Son_Goku> #meetingname workstation
14:10:30 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation'
14:10:33 <Son_Goku> #topic Roll call
14:10:41 <kalev> morning
14:10:42 <cmurf> .hello chrismurphy
14:10:43 <zodbot> cmurf: chrismurphy 'Chris Murphy' <bugzilla@colorremedies.com>
14:10:46 <aday> .hello aday
14:10:48 <zodbot> aday: aday 'None' <aday@redhat.com>
14:11:57 <cmurf> ok so that's four?
14:12:09 <Son_Goku> doesn't seem like we have enough for quorum
14:12:20 <cmurf> aday, cmurf, ngompa, kalev, petersen, that's 5
14:12:38 <Son_Goku> I'd chalk this up to people forgetting we actually implemented the switch to weekly
14:12:49 <cmurf> yes I agree that's part of it
14:13:12 <cmurf> I'm not sure if everyone is subscribing to the calendar, rather than having imported it
14:13:26 <Son_Goku> I imported it once, so that's probably why I only realized yesterday
14:13:34 <Son_Goku> I need to fix that
14:13:47 <aday> i'd also ascribe this to our comms happening on fedora-desktop
14:13:53 <cmurf> subscribing causes it to update your calendar automatically; importing only brings in a static version that won't get updates to the schedule
14:15:20 <cmurf> ok well amongst the five of us, we can decide whether to make this a working session or bail
14:15:28 <petersen> At least 5 is close to quorum
14:15:30 <cmurf> we can't vote, but there are other things that can be done if we want
14:16:08 <Son_Goku> Is there anything pressing to discuss (keeping in mind there's no voting?)
14:16:36 <petersen> People should really send regrets to the mailing list if they can't attend, or was that why we needed a private list?
14:16:38 <cmurf> we can vote in tickets anyway, so I'd rather make use of the time such as we have it
14:17:02 <Son_Goku> sending regrets is sort of pointless, but sure
14:17:07 <cmurf> petersen: that is one of our issues $106, better WG organization
14:17:17 <petersen> yea
14:17:28 <Son_Goku> you're either here or you're not, and a "regret" doesn't change much
14:17:40 <petersen> Well it is transparent :)
14:17:49 <cmurf> Instead of blowing 17 minutes next time this happens, we can agree that if there is no quorum we proceed as a working session?
14:18:06 <petersen> +1
14:18:14 * Son_Goku shrugs
14:18:36 <Son_Goku> I don't care one way or the other
14:18:51 <cmurf> and nothing stops us from reaching a consensus here, and having the secretary paste the vote count to the issue
14:19:00 <Son_Goku> I'm actually somewhat surprised it stayed at 9am, because we just flipped to standard time here
14:19:01 <petersen> That's right
14:19:01 <cmurf> but anyway, do we have things that are even discussed enough to be voted on today?
14:19:12 <aday> Son_Goku, sending regrets enables us to know who to expect at a meeting, and organise the agenda accordingly
14:19:23 <petersen> Son_Goku: the meeting time is based on EST/EDT...
14:19:28 <aday> it also enables us to cancel meetings if we're not going to make quorum
14:19:36 <Son_Goku> aday, I guess so
14:19:37 <cmurf> Son_Goku yea that surprised me to because I'm UTC, but I think the logic is to change the UTC times for all meetings to make sure the local time stays the same in the US
14:19:54 <Son_Goku> cmurf, if this had been at 8am, I wouldn't have been up at all
14:19:55 <cmurf> which is why last week it was 1300UTC and today it's 1400UTC, coinciding with US changing off DST yesterday
14:20:00 <Son_Goku> there's no way I'd make it to an 8am meeting
14:20:03 <cmurf> European and UK have been off DST for a week
14:20:16 <petersen> nod
14:20:42 <cmurf> anyway, if we have nothing to vote on, it doesn't matter that we can't vote, not point discussing that for 20 minutes :D
14:21:05 <cmurf> so next time around we should just move to working session
14:21:08 * petersen notes there is no DST where he is...
14:21:28 <cmurf> Arizona?
14:21:31 <Son_Goku> I wish we were always in DST here...
14:21:33 <petersen> heh Asia
14:21:37 <cmurf> Anyway...
14:21:40 <Son_Goku> I like having sunlight in the evening...
14:21:54 <cmurf> So how about issue #82?
14:22:18 <cmurf> most everywhere here now is on the encryption subgroup or at least peripherally interested in that subject
14:22:20 <Son_Goku> the LUKS thing?
14:22:23 <cmurf> yes
14:22:53 <cmurf> another easy one might be vim by default
14:23:00 <Son_Goku> vim by default is probably better
14:23:01 <cmurf> issue #103
14:23:17 <cmurf> what are the arguments for and against?
14:23:29 <Son_Goku> #topic Install vim by default - https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/103
14:23:59 <Son_Goku> I think my only issue is the assumption that vim is a good text editor
14:24:02 <Son_Goku> it's a pretty horrible one
14:24:30 <Son_Goku> most of us have Stockholm Syndrome and consider it good because we're used to it, but it's pretty awful for new folks
14:24:42 <cmurf> I agree with that, even though I use it
14:24:56 <cmurf> I prefer nano but muscle memory causes me to type vi every time
14:25:52 <Son_Goku> I personally don't have an issue with shipping vim-enhanced for vim users, but I'd rather have nano as our default text editor
14:25:57 <petersen> So what is the argument for vim here specifically?  :)
14:26:10 <cmurf> vim-minimal + vim-filesystem are 1.3M
14:26:38 <petersen> But vim-common is bigger
14:26:51 <petersen> Can we have emacs too? ;o)
14:27:13 <Son_Goku> I personally would love emacs there, but I have a feeling nobody will agree to that
14:27:23 <cmurf> 6.4M for vim-common
14:27:23 <petersen> Son_Goku: me too...
14:27:42 <cmurf> 3.3M for emacs
14:27:47 <aday> i'd be supportive of nano by default
14:27:57 <petersen> emacs-common is big
14:28:05 <aday> but we'd need to think about the transition, and how to smooth the way for vim users
14:28:08 <cmurf> nano is 640K
14:28:25 <Son_Goku> and thankfully nano has syntax highlighting too
14:28:26 <aday> the userbase of emacs is far lower than vim
14:28:41 <petersen> aday: how much?
14:28:42 <aday> see https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#technology-_-most-popular-development-environments
14:29:29 <petersen> interesting datapoint
14:29:57 <petersen> aday: well that lends weight to the proposal
14:30:02 <cmurf> how many people present have installed vim-common?
14:30:17 <Son_Goku> I have vim, emacs, and nano
14:30:20 <Son_Goku> so... ehh?
14:30:23 <petersen> cmurf: I think vim-enhanced requires it?
14:30:34 <cmurf> ok how many people install vim-enhanced?
14:30:35 <Son_Goku> petersen, it does
14:30:36 <petersen> ah present
14:30:36 <cmurf> i haven't
14:30:45 <kalev> I have vim-enhanced installed, none of the others
14:30:52 <cmurf> apparently i've been using vim-minimal this whole time and never realized it
14:31:00 <petersen> I don't have vim-common
14:31:08 <petersen> I am an Emacs user
14:31:16 <petersen> cmurf: heh
14:31:26 <cmurf> so while i'm not opposed to the proposal; off hand I'm not hearing that actual developers (which I'm not) are installing it
14:31:39 <petersen> it is installed by default: I use vi as root etc
14:31:39 <Son_Goku> I primarily use Emacs
14:31:40 <cmurf> or at least they haven't complained that they have to install it
14:31:51 <cmurf> this isn't an issue I've heard on desktop or devel, ever
14:31:59 <Son_Goku> my system is old... I installed vim-enhanced a long time ago so that I could have arrow keys work by default :)
14:32:10 <Son_Goku> nowadays arrow keys and syntax highlighting works with vim-minimal
14:32:17 <petersen> nod
14:32:57 <cmurf> ok not directly related to this particular issue, but i sometimes have difficultly understanding exactly what Fedora users really want even on a simple level like X vs Y, or Y vs Z
14:32:59 <Son_Goku> vim-common has most of the syntax highlight definitions, iirc
14:33:06 <cmurf> should be be doing polling? Or is that totally fraught with error?
14:33:11 <cmurf> s/error/peril
14:33:25 <cmurf> s/be/we
14:33:29 <petersen> cmurf: it wouldn't hurt in my opinion
14:34:02 * Son_Goku shrugs
14:34:38 <cmurf> just generally I can't even assess the merit of the issue because it's 6.4M, which isn't that big on the one hand, but then we just had this conversation about ISO size being busted and we decided...
14:34:53 <cmurf> do reduce the delivered ISO below 2G, rather than bump the size up
14:35:11 <kalev> I don't think this is something that really matters either way, people are just going to install whatever editor they need
14:35:12 <Son_Goku> honestly, I don't think many people care about the vim we have
14:35:18 <kalev> as long as we have some editor by default for system recovery
14:35:25 <Son_Goku> we have *a* vim
14:35:42 <Son_Goku> I think that vim as our default editor is a terrible idea, but it's what we have now
14:35:46 <cmurf> yeah it's not like they're stuck without basic editing
14:35:47 <petersen> gedit is also installed by default...
14:36:02 <kalev> gedit doesn't work for command line system recovery
14:36:03 <petersen> but okay we are discussing vim
14:36:07 <cmurf> the people possibly stuck without basic editing would be non-vim users, and I'd say nano is probably a better bank for the "buck" just because it's 640K
14:36:10 <cmurf> rather than 6.4M
14:36:17 <Son_Goku> I agree
14:36:21 <petersen> yeah
14:36:53 <cmurf> From a recovery standpoint, I think both vim-minimal and nano covers more use cases out of the box than vim-enhanced+common
14:36:59 <Son_Goku> yes
14:37:02 <cmurf> i.e. you're in the weeds
14:37:54 <cmurf> OK well I'll add a proposal to include nano and keep vim-minimal, by default on the ISO media and we can all vote in the issue
14:37:57 <cmurf> I"d be a +1
14:38:05 <aday> i bet there's a lot of people out there who just stick with the default, because it's the default
14:38:07 <aday> i know i do
14:38:17 <petersen> cmurf: sounds good
14:38:34 <aday> don't really know vim. don't know the difference between these different vims you're discussing. struggle on anyway
14:38:56 <aday> this is why good defaults are important
14:38:57 <Son_Goku> aday, these days, there's not much other than defaults, language definitions for syntax highlight
14:39:24 <Son_Goku> vim-minimal doesn't have those pieces installed, and doesn't support much of the extensibility of vim, as that's in vim-enhanced
14:39:30 <cmurf> ok I"m wrong: vim-enhanced is 1.4M, vim-common is 6.4M, and if common is dragged in then it's really 7.8M
14:40:05 <cmurf> yeah dnf says both are brought in as well as a tiny gpm-libs
14:40:07 <cmurf> Total download size: 7.8 M
14:41:07 <cmurf> on the live, it's installed so the installed size sorta applies, but then gets squashfs compressed so mayyybe it's back to 7.8 *shrug*
14:41:23 <petersen> Yeah roughly I expect
14:41:57 * mcatanzaro apologizes for lateness
14:42:18 <cmurf> ladies and gentlemen, we now have a quorum!
14:42:21 <Son_Goku> welp
14:44:24 <mcatanzaro> So... vim/nano?
14:44:34 <Son_Goku> yeah
14:44:36 <cmurf> ok so I just added a comment to the issue
14:44:43 <cmurf> summary of this discussion
14:45:47 <petersen> mcatanzaro: did you have some stronger arguments than you put in the ticket?
14:45:57 <mcatanzaro> petersen: Nope.
14:46:01 <petersen> okay
14:46:09 <mcatanzaro> I just get annoyed when I have to install vim manually. :P
14:46:31 <Son_Goku> hah
14:46:37 <petersen> okay I also wonder how many people get annoyed about it
14:46:42 <proneon267> anyone tried micro? find it more easier than both vim and nano
14:46:53 <mcatanzaro> tbh I've never heard of micro
14:46:57 <cmurf> I haven't used it
14:47:06 <Son_Goku> never heard of it
14:47:24 <mcatanzaro> FWIW I also liked Son_Goku's proposal to install nano... that seems to be conventional nowadays
14:47:26 <cmurf> It's entirely plausible micro is easier but then also the question is some familiarity along with keyboard shortcuts right on the screen out of the gate, which nano does
14:47:29 <proneon267> https://github.com/zyedidia/micro and https://micro-editor.github.io/
14:48:49 <proneon267> anyway I would go for the first proposal
14:48:55 <cmurf> micro is 4.5 M
14:49:09 <Son_Goku> ah, it's written in Go
14:49:12 <Son_Goku> yeah, too bloated
14:49:15 <cmurf> so i still think nano at 640K is a bigger bang for the buck
14:49:34 <petersen> proneon267: looks nice though
14:49:51 <Son_Goku> #info Proposal: Retain vim-minimal, add nano to the default installed editors, explore setting nano as default terminal editor for usability
14:50:01 <cmurf> +1
14:50:04 <petersen> +1
14:50:17 <cmurf> same thing as i just inserted into the issue as proposal 2
14:50:28 <mcatanzaro> +1
14:50:35 <Son_Goku> +1
14:50:39 <Son_Goku> (duh)
14:50:58 <proneon267> -1
14:51:02 <mcatanzaro> I think I can suffer one 'dnf install' command to get my vim, but at least this way users can have something easier to use
14:51:13 <cmurf> aday?
14:51:30 <cmurf> kalev?
14:51:39 <aday> oh, we're doing a meeting now?
14:51:43 <cmurf> LOL
14:51:48 <mcatanzaro> aday, 50 minutes ago, yes
14:51:51 <aday> often quorum only counts at the beginning of the meeting
14:51:57 <Son_Goku> oh the irony
14:52:01 <mcatanzaro> I slept through the first 40 minutes so don't feel too bad
14:52:04 <aday> mcatanzaro, yes, i was here
14:52:27 <mcatanzaro> Ah yeah, we used to just not start the meetings when we didn't have quorum but cmurf is a bit of a taskmaster, wants to discuss things :D
14:52:54 <aday> that's not quite what i meant, but never mind
14:52:56 <cmurf> we're very close to clearing 103 off the board :D
14:53:21 <kalev> I am 0 to the proposal
14:53:23 <mcatanzaro> cmurf, is 103 all we accomplished today? Really sorry for being late. :(
14:53:30 <aday> what does "add nano to the default installed editors" mean in practice?
14:53:45 <Son_Goku> aday, it means the nano package will get installed on the workstation ISO
14:53:47 <petersen> Add nano to WS
14:53:58 <mcatanzaro> BTW the immediate advantage I see of nano over micro is (besides nano being conventional and very popular is you can see all the keyboard shortcuts at the bottom of the screen, so you know how to use it
14:54:07 <cmurf> well we spent 20 minutes about lack of quorum and what to do; and my idea is next time we don't have quorum is to move to a working session and at least have discussions among the people who have already set aside the time
14:54:13 <aday> and what's the point of installing nano but not using it as the default?
14:54:22 <cmurf> i was in a coffee shop with a tea, so I wasn't going anywhere for an hour regardless
14:54:41 <proneon267> but micro has the same keyboard shortcuts as GUI apps so it feels more intuitive
14:54:44 <Son_Goku> hmm, I wonder if I did that title thing wrong
14:54:50 <Son_Goku> #proposal Retain vim-minimal, add nano to the default installed editors, explore setting nano as default terminal editor for usability
14:54:56 <Son_Goku> meh
14:55:00 <Son_Goku> I guess it doesn't do anything
14:55:20 <Son_Goku> oh wait
14:55:21 <cmurf> it will probably show up in the minutes that way? not sure
14:55:23 <Son_Goku> zodbot died
14:55:33 <cmurf> aww
14:55:38 <mcatanzaro> zodbot: hi
14:55:39 <zodbot> mcatanzaro: Sorry, but you don't exist
14:55:40 <cmurf> so out meeting minutes are toast too probably
14:55:51 <aday> what's the point of installing nano but not using it as the default?
14:55:59 <Son_Goku> aday, we want to use it as default
14:56:02 <petersen> aday: fair question
14:56:07 <Son_Goku> we just don't yet know how to..
14:56:09 <proneon267> backward compartibility, I guess
14:56:12 <Son_Goku> I don't know how the Debian guys did it
14:56:13 <cmurf> what does "by default" mean in this case?
14:56:20 <mcatanzaro> cmurf: $EDITOR probably?
14:56:28 <Son_Goku> probably that
14:56:49 <cmurf> how does it manifest to the user?
14:56:51 <aday> default = "what you get when you edit something from the cli"
14:57:06 <cmurf> ahhh ok so like 'git commit' and i get vi vs nano
14:57:08 <cmurf> gotcha
14:57:08 <mcatanzaro> 'git commit' -> wind up in an understandable/usable editor, not vi
14:57:11 <Son_Goku> bingo
14:57:21 <cmurf> yeah well...hmmmm
14:57:58 <Son_Goku> I think Debian also has this /usr/bin/editor thing that somehow everything checks for
14:58:00 <petersen> Debian/Ubuntu only install nano?
14:58:02 <Son_Goku> I don't know if we have that too
14:58:04 <Son_Goku> petersen, yes
14:58:16 <mcatanzaro> At least Ubuntu uses nano as default, I think
14:58:19 <cmurf> gotta go guys
14:58:23 <Son_Goku> it's the default text editor on all non-minimal Debian/Ubuntu systems
14:58:33 <petersen> Son_Goku: I don't think we have 'editor'
14:58:35 <mcatanzaro> I was thinking "vi is really hard to use for people familiar with vim" but yes nano is way easier than vim, so...
14:58:44 <mcatanzaro> Bye cmurf, thanks
14:58:51 <Son_Goku> I've gotta go soon too
14:58:52 <aday> i'm +1 to exploring nano (or another simple editors?) by default. don't see the point in installing something if we're not going to use it
14:59:08 <cmurf> I"m +1 to exploring nano by default as well, but not to doing that just yet
14:59:10 <cmurf> ok bye!
14:59:16 <proneon267> nano's keyboard looks very confusing, maybe it's just for me
14:59:44 <Son_Goku> #agreed We'll keep vim-minimal, add nano to default installed editors, and explore setting nano as default terminal editor
15:00:01 <Son_Goku> welp
15:00:05 <Son_Goku> I think zodbot broke
15:00:29 <petersen> Son_Goku: what makes you think that?
15:00:37 <Son_Goku> it's not responding to the hashtag commands
15:01:01 <petersen> It doesn't, except endmeeting and chair I think
15:01:17 <Son_Goku> since we're at the top of the hour...
15:01:23 <Son_Goku> #topic Open Floor
15:01:31 <petersen> I kind of sympathize with the what's the point of adding nano if people don't know, them, but maybe it helps people coming from deb distros
15:01:53 <Son_Goku> I think it'd help in general
15:02:00 <proneon267> maybe
15:02:06 <Son_Goku> there's a lot of tools that randomly drop you into editors
15:02:16 <Son_Goku> git is the most common one, but it's not the only one
15:02:30 <petersen> Sure if we make it default, people will notice
15:03:01 <proneon267> what does redhat ship with?
15:03:08 <Son_Goku> right now, just vim-minimal by default
15:03:16 <petersen> yep
15:03:27 <Son_Goku> what we do in Fedora will flow down into RHEL
15:03:29 <petersen> RHEL
15:03:44 <Son_Goku> ... eventually
15:03:48 <petersen> generally
15:03:57 <proneon267> well centos also ship with nano
15:04:02 <petersen> aha
15:04:05 <petersen> Good to know
15:04:12 <proneon267> so I guess, everyone is with nano
15:04:21 <petersen> proneon267: it is small
15:04:45 <proneon267> yes another advantage
15:05:20 <Son_Goku> anyway, I've got to go now
15:05:31 <Son_Goku> thanks for coming!
15:05:33 <Son_Goku> #endmeeting