11:53:38 <aday> #startmeeting Workstation WG (2020-03-17)
11:53:38 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Mar 24 11:53:38 2020 UTC.
11:53:38 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
11:53:38 <zodbot> The chair is aday. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
11:53:38 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
11:53:38 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation_wg_(2020-03-17)'
11:53:38 <aday> #meetingname workstation
11:53:38 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation'
11:53:38 <aday> #chair cmurf
11:53:38 <zodbot> Current chairs: aday cmurf
11:53:38 <aday> 
11:53:38 <aday> #topic Rollcall
11:53:38 <aday> 
11:53:40 <aday> #info present: Michael, Chris, Jens, Kalev, Matthias, Neal, Tomas, Langdon (joined later). Guests: Benjamin Berg, Felipe Borges, Matthew Miller
11:53:43 <aday> #info regrets: Allan
11:53:45 <aday> #info missing:
11:53:47 <aday> 
11:53:49 <aday> #topic Defer approval of minutes to next week
11:53:51 <aday> #link https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/teams/workstation/workstation.2020-03-12-18.24.html
11:53:53 <aday> 
11:53:55 <aday> #topic Announcements
11:53:59 <aday> 
11:54:01 <aday> #info Fedora 32 beta is out!
11:54:03 <aday> #info WG discusses multimedia codecs.
11:54:05 <aday> #info Kalev produced another YouTube video that has attracted some positive attention.
11:54:07 <aday> 
11:54:09 <aday> #topic Reconsider updates policy
11:54:11 <aday> #info https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/107
11:54:13 <aday> Michael: Summary. Weekly or bi-weekly prefered. Notification to be based on urgent severity as set in Bodhi. It applies all other available updates at the same time as urgent. Needs coordination to let maintainers know that urgent severity will cause reboot.
11:54:17 <aday> #info Regular updates every 1-2 weeks, urgent updates on demand and hopefully not often
11:54:19 <aday> Matthew: I agree. Even if there isn't a central means of deciding urgency, there should be a FESCo policy defining "urgent".
11:54:22 <aday> #info request FESCo establish a policy/definition around what is "urgent"
11:54:24 <aday> Kalev: I have ideas on how server side batching could work: two updates repositories, daily and two-week
11:54:29 <aday> Multiple persons: Can we make existing 'updates-testing' the daily, and existing 'updates' the two-week?
11:54:32 <aday> Neal: I don't think server side batching solves anything.
11:54:34 <aday> Kalev: Purpose is to QA the updates.
11:54:36 <aday> Matthew: History is QA was against it because no one has time for it. But the proposal is a step forward, perception is Fedora is unstable due to all of the updates.
11:54:39 <aday> Neal: Does merely a two week delay, that then has a ton of updates, address that perception?
11:54:41 <aday> Matthew: Yes it helps.
11:54:43 <aday> Mattias: Flatpaks also helps solve the problem, they can be update at any time without interrupting the user or requiring reboot.
11:54:46 <aday> Matthew: That's a good story too.
11:54:48 <aday> 
11:54:50 <aday> #topic Status update: should we enable thermald by default?
11:54:52 <aday> #info https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/71
11:54:54 <aday> Benjamin: Summary: helps mostly laptops, not much for desktops. Requires a non-free component in RPM Fusion 'dptfxtract'. Infrastructure complication whether/how to process ACPI dump to produce a configuration without 'dptfxtract'. User space daemon is more effective than depending on the kernel or firmware, it can take load into account to preemptively apply mitigation rather than waiting for temperature triggers being tripped.
11:55:01 <aday> #info dptfxtract processes raw ACPI data into a configuration file that thermald uses
11:55:03 <aday> Neal: No. Not sustainable.
11:55:05 <aday> Benjamin: Leaves ~40% of battery life on the table.
11:55:07 <aday> Chris: Difficult problem, also relates to Broadcom issue.
11:55:09 <aday> Various: And Nvidia.
11:55:11 <aday> Neal: Problem is no one cares enough to put the effort into solving it.
11:55:13 <aday> Michael: I didn't know the issues enough until now to care.
11:55:15 <aday> #info Thermald by default? WG is "no" as described, due to non-free dptfxtract, but is willing to explore alternatives
11:55:18 <aday> #action cmurf to start a discussion on 01.org
11:55:20 <aday> #action need a volunteer to start a discussion on devel@ about shipping+maintaining configuration files
11:55:23 <aday> 
11:55:25 <aday> #topic automatically adding new packages when upgrading
11:55:29 <aday> #info https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/138
11:55:31 <aday> cmurf: Summary. Sanity check if I'm confused, and if not is it a bigger problem in the general case?
11:55:34 <aday> Neal and Kalev: It should be possible. Sounds like a dnf bug. Workaround using weak dependencies: supplements.
11:55:37 <aday> #action cmurf to file a dnf bug
11:55:39 <aday> #action Neal to followup with Daniel Mach to confirm/deny whether this is a bug
11:55:41 <aday> 
11:55:43 <aday> #endmeeting