23:53:05 #startmeeting Workstation WG (2020-05-26) 23:53:05 Meeting started Tue May 26 23:53:05 2020 UTC. 23:53:05 This meeting is logged and archived in a public location. 23:53:05 The chair is cmurf. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 23:53:05 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 23:53:05 The meeting name has been set to 'workstation_wg_(2020-05-26)' 23:53:07 #meetingname workstation 23:53:07 The meeting name has been set to 'workstation' 23:53:09 #chair aday 23:53:09 Current chairs: aday cmurf 23:53:24 #topic Rollcall 23:53:26 #info present: aday, neal, chris, tomas, mcatanzaro, mclasen, jens, james, feborges, link, landon, owen 23:53:28 #info regrets: kalev 23:53:30 #topic Approve 19 May minutes 23:53:32 #link https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/teams/workstation/workstation.2020-05-19-17.11.html 23:53:34 #agreed No objections - approved 23:53:36 #topic Announcements 23:53:38 FESCo elections are happening. Neal and Chris are running. 23:53:40 #topic Followups 23:53:42 Chris: expects to have a hibernation status summary ready soon. Swap on zram change proposal will follow shortly thereafter. 23:53:44 [mclasen joins] 23:53:46 #topic F33 planning 23:53:48 Allan: Asks for opinions on how the Workstation product is positioned, what are we doing well and what are we not doing well? 23:53:50 Neal: Thinks we are doing a good job of polishing the product, but too conservative regarding potential big changes. Needs more coherent user experience, and clarify the target audience. 23:53:52 Matthias and Langdon: Discuss Toolbox and importance of Toolbox to Silverblue. Could become a central feature of Workstation. 23:53:54 [langdon post meeting] not just silverblue, this could/should be important to workstation in general 23:53:56 [langdon post meeting] would really like to see a "summit" for a feature list/request for toolbox w/ the app team 23:53:58 Michael: Desktop quality and Fedora's reputation seems to have improved significantly over the last few years. We still occasionally get dinged as being a "testbed for RHEL," which is unfortunate, especially in the recent Ars Technica review. 23:54:00 Neal: We should switch to Btrfs by default so that we have a counterweight to the ZFS thing. We have upstream developers interested in supporting Fedora use-cases with Btrfs. 23:54:02 Owen: Should figure out future for Silverblue vs. Workstation. What developer-oriented features do we want to show up in F33? New lockscreen is our big new F32 feature, but this is not a developer-oriented feature and doesn't sell our developer-oriented story. Should focus on Toolbox. 23:54:04 Langdon: Wishes Toolbox was better-integrated into GNOME Terminal, wishes it was easier to switch in and out. Doesn't like that we default to no root password, this makes it impossible to enter systemd recovery mode. Lack of Electron is a problem since Electron is used by lots of software. Should be easy to get Electron apps into Fedora. 23:54:06 Neal: Electron is where lots of app development is going, we need to have something. Many don't work well with flatpak. These days, Electron seems to be much easier to package as a shared runtime, evidenced by Arch packaging: https://git.archlinux.org/svntogit/community.git/tree/trunk/PKGBUILD?h=packages/electron 23:54:08 Tomas: Mentions Fedora flatpaks. Kalev wants to preinstall Fedora flatpaks in Workstation. 23:54:10 Jens: Investigating subpackaging of translations and new fonts packaging guidelines. 23:54:12 Allan: Our instinct as a WG has been to fix everything and do a lot of things, but we might be most effective to focus on developer experience, desktop quality and coherence, and how things fit together as a whole. 23:54:14 Langdon: Cautions against comparisons to other platforms (Ubuntu, macOS, Windows). Our target audience is developers, other platforms have a different target audience. To keep developer focus, we need to look for things that make developers' lives easier. And what kind of developer? Web development and systems development are very different. We should focus more on this space. Including 23:54:16 all creators, visual designers, writers, etc. Focus should be creators, not consumers. 23:54:18 Neal: Objects. People start out as consumers before they become creators, and work with the tools they start out with. Must not ignore this. 23:54:20 #topic kanban 23:54:22 Neal: needs reorganizing for F33 23:54:24 Michael: ffmpeg, item to track electron 23:54:26 langdon: Enable RPM Fusion, everyone does that right? And I'd like to see this happen with flathub too, but favor the Fedora versions 23:54:28 Neal: technical work in DNF happening to do preferred repo sources, and it can be set to prefer Fedora 23:54:30 Mattias: not sure how priorities can help with this 23:54:32 Neal: vendor locking 23:54:34 Michael: RPM Fusion has much less important once ffmpeg is solved so they don't have to enable it or it isn't as urgent; difficulty with a comprehensive flathub 23:54:36 Owen: can't have a comprehensive RPM Fusion either 23:54:38 Allan: app discoverability possibly needs a discussion as it relates to particular use cases 23:54:40 Neal: is there an update on including ffmpeg? 23:54:42 Tomas: discussions last week to work on making it happen, hopefully get to it soon 23:54:44 Allan: we should review default installed apps again 23:54:46 #topic adjourned 23:54:50 #endmeeting