03:03:30 <cmurf> #startmeeting Workstation WG (2020-09-15)
03:03:30 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Sep 16 03:03:30 2020 UTC.
03:03:30 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
03:03:30 <zodbot> The chair is cmurf. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
03:03:30 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
03:03:30 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation_wg_(2020-09-15)'
03:03:32 <cmurf> #meetingname workstation
03:03:32 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation'
03:03:34 <cmurf> #chair cmurf
03:03:34 <zodbot> Current chairs: cmurf
03:04:47 <cmurf> #topic Rollcall
03:04:49 <cmurf> #info present wg members: cmurf, aday, neal, tpopela, mclasen, mcatanzaro, kalev, owen, langdon, petersen
03:04:51 <cmurf> #info regrets wg members:
03:04:53 <cmurf> #info present guests: feborges, james,
03:04:55 <cmurf> #topic Approve 8 Sep minutes
03:04:57 <cmurf> #link https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/teams/workstation/workstation.2020-09-10-02.49.log.html
03:04:59 <cmurf> #agreed Approved - no objections
03:05:01 <cmurf> #topic Announcements
03:05:03 <cmurf> #info Kalev: GNOME 3.38.0 is in Bohdi. If the F33 release slips by a week, that will end up in the F33 beta - which is great.
03:05:05 <cmurf> Kalev: there's one blocker at the moment - https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/tracker-miners/-/issues/136 . Carlos Garnacho is away and might prevent us from landing it in time for the beta.
03:05:07 <cmurf> Neal: an ABRT issue is blocking the beta; there's a fix, but it hasn't landed in testing - so the beta slipping is likely.
03:05:09 <cmurf> #info Michael: systemd-resolved is experiencing issues - 3 blockers
03:05:11 <cmurf> #topic Follow-ups  & Status reports
03:05:13 <cmurf> #info Allan: the new 3rd party repos policy has been merged - removes the policy blocker from #108
03:05:15 <cmurf> #topic Flatpak preferred over native (rpm) software in GNOME Software
03:05:17 <cmurf> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/151
03:05:19 <cmurf> Michael: we're not confident about installing Fedora Flatpaks at the moment - quality isn't the same as Flathub Flatpaks.
03:05:21 <cmurf> Kalev was working on localisation for Fedora Flatpaks. This has now been completed.
03:05:23 <cmurf> The other issue was that they were lacking debug info. We discussed some options, but we didn't come up with a plan. We're not going to have debug info for F33.
03:05:25 <cmurf> Owen: we don't have ABRT support for Flatpak, so we're not going to have a complete solution. What would be good enough? Michael: flatpak-coredump working, being able to manually run gdb on a Flatpak.
03:05:27 <cmurf> There is some related work planned upstream.
03:05:29 <cmurf> Michael reads https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/151#comment-668019
03:05:31 <cmurf> We've been using the Fedora Flatpaks since they were first introduced in F28?
03:05:33 <cmurf> Concern that if we turn off Fedora Flatpaks, it will de-prioritise efforts to improve the infrastructure.
03:05:35 <cmurf> Langdon: could we enable Fedora Flatpaks for some things and not others? Or RPM for some things and Flatpaks for others.
03:05:37 <cmurf> Owen: it should be a policy setting rather than hard-coded in GNOME Software.
03:05:39 <cmurf> Discussion about repository settings for what's preferred and what isn't. Also related to other areas - modules.
03:05:41 <cmurf> Allan: we have three issues here:
03:05:43 <cmurf> 1. Goals, roadmap and blockers for the Fedora Flatpak initiative
03:05:45 <cmurf> 2. Excluding inappropriate apps (eg. Evolution) from Flatpaks
03:05:47 <cmurf> 3. Configuration of preferred software repositories, by users and sysadmins
03:05:49 <cmurf> Michael: regarding 1 - we have localisation, deltas are coming, debug info (Owen will work on this). Evolution maybe just needs to stop building as a Flatpak.
03:05:51 <cmurf> Allan: where are we trying to get to with this? What are the other pieces of the puzzle?
03:05:53 <cmurf> Kalev: that's unclear to me too. Is the goal to get to the point where we ship everything as Flatpaks by default.
03:05:55 <cmurf> Tomas: we want a stable platform - the goal is to use Fedora flatpaks as our main target
03:05:57 <cmurf> Allan: how many apps do we want as Flatpaks? All? A subset? Tomas: to be decided.
03:05:59 <cmurf> Allan: doesn't feel comfortable about pushing forward with Fedora Flatpaks without having a clear set of goals.
03:06:01 <cmurf> Owen: step 1 is allowing packagers to build Flatpaks, step 2 is ..., step 3 is apps that aren't RPMs (but that's way off).
03:06:03 <cmurf> Kalev: some pushback has been from developers who are used to RPMs. Could try and do some outreach work around it and improving the developer story.
03:06:05 <cmurf> Neal: points out developer story issues with Flatpak
03:06:07 <cmurf> Langdon: Flatpak is missing docs for converting an existing app to Flatpak
03:06:09 <cmurf> Owen: Fedara Flatpaks are not going to compete with other options - you need to be an existing Fedora developer and have Fedora-specific knowledge
03:06:11 <cmurf> Allan: agrees with the general thrust of pursuing Fedora but feels that we are lacking answers to questionings regarding where we want to be in the short-medium term, including:
03:06:13 <cmurf> - Number and type of apps we want Flatpaks for
03:06:15 <cmurf> - Expectations for documentation and tooling
03:06:17 <cmurf> - Expectations for community involvement - do we want the community involve?
03:06:19 <cmurf> - Testing processes and quality expectations
03:06:21 <cmurf> - User awareness, understanding, engagement
03:06:23 <cmurf> Langdon: deciding which apps should or shouldn't be a Flatpak requires some centralised coordination and control
03:06:36 <cmurf> #topic Give ABRT some lurve
03:06:38 <cmurf> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/130
03:06:40 <cmurf> #agreed Deferred
03:06:42 <cmurf> #topic GNOME Software is recommending proprietary software
03:06:44 <cmurf> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/111
03:06:46 <cmurf> #agreed Deferred
03:06:48 <cmurf> #topic Open Floor
03:06:50 <cmurf> #agreed Deferred
03:06:55 <cmurf> #endmeeting