17:27:05 <brainycmurf> #startmeeting Workstation WG (2022-05-03) 17:27:05 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue May 3 17:27:05 2022 UTC. 17:27:05 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location. 17:27:05 <zodbot> The chair is brainycmurf. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions. 17:27:05 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 17:27:05 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation_wg_(2022-05-03)' 17:27:05 <brainycmurf> #meetingname workstation 17:27:05 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation' 17:27:05 <brainycmurf> #chair aday 17:27:05 <zodbot> Current chairs: aday brainycmurf 17:27:32 <brainycmurf> #info Present members: Allan, Tomas, Chris, Matthias, Owen, Neal 17:27:32 <brainycmurf> #info Guests: Ben 17:27:32 <brainycmurf> #info Regrets: Jens 17:27:32 <brainycmurf> #info Missing: 17:27:32 <brainycmurf> #info Secretary: Chris 17:27:33 <brainycmurf> #topic Release blocking status of basic functionality tests for apps 17:27:34 <brainycmurf> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/304 17:27:36 <brainycmurf> Ben: summarizes the various GNOME related release blocking bugs role of the working group in the blocker review process 17:27:39 <brainycmurf> #info Fedora final release criterion specifying "basic functionality" 17:27:41 <brainycmurf> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_36_Final_Release_Criteria#Default_application_functionality 17:27:44 <brainycmurf> Owen: we need to take into account whether these apps can be maintained as to whether they're the default app, but it can't be a go to for working around the problem; update the list of apps that really block the list, and clarify basic functionality; we really want to catch these kinds of bugs a month or two earlier, and removing them from the test plans doesn't really solve the problem 17:27:51 <brainycmurf> Ben: lack of specificity in the apps to test and what constitutes basic functionality might be a factor in not catching them on the GNOME test day; need to work with QA to narrow the test cases. 17:27:54 <brainycmurf> Tomas: I'm wondering how we got to the point that these kinds of bugs are becoming blockers. These bugs are more common bugs in my opinion, we need to put some pressure on the maintainers, but I don't think they should be blockers. 17:27:58 <brainycmurf> Ben: This may be the issue with "basic functionality" needing clarification. 17:28:00 <brainycmurf> Tomas: Why weren't the bugs discovered sooner? 17:28:02 <brainycmurf> Ben: If they're not in the test cases list, they tend to not get tested until there's an RC. 17:28:04 <brainycmurf> Michael: Some of these bugs look kinda bad, makes me wonder if Fedora isn't doing QA if some of these bugs ship in the release. We don't want anything to block the release, but it's a bad look to ship Photos in this state. 17:28:08 <brainycmurf> Owen: Are these regressions? New in 36? 17:28:10 <brainycmurf> Allan: I'm aware of issues in Photos that are as bad or worse than these, in shipped releases. So it's a good question, why were they discovered? Was there just more testing recently? 17:28:13 <brainycmurf> Owen: Question is if this is becoming a habit, to release them in suboptimal condition? 17:28:17 <brainycmurf> Neal: We need to fix the GNOME Terminal bug. 17:28:19 <brainycmurf> Owen: I guess that the user's default bash config is missing, could be PAM bug 17:28:21 <brainycmurf> - discussion on what could be causing the bug 17:28:23 <brainycmurf> Neal: we don't define what constitutes basic functionality for some of these apps, we do for Firefox but not GNOME Photos. More people are testing, because more people are testing Fedora. Need to be more specific about the requirements. Nightlies don't show up anywhere, no visibility. They need to be more prominent to get more earlier testing. 17:28:28 <brainycmurf> Allan: what do you need from us? 17:28:30 <brainycmurf> Ben: Is helpful, I think you should ship whatever applications you want, with whatever criteria we can release against. No agenda for the outcome of F37, other than something we can do reliably. And can push on QA and Releng to make sure we have the resources to do that. For short term, there's not a lot of support to drop these apps, so we just need to get input on which bugs are fixable vs should be waived. Votes and comments in the blocker 17:28:35 <brainycmurf> bugs app would be most helpful. 17:28:37 <brainycmurf> Michael: Proposal, ask QA to consider basic functionality more narrowly. 17:28:39 <brainycmurf> Ben: Still is open ended, needs to be more explicit. 17:28:41 <brainycmurf> Michael: Hopefully by being less strict there will be fewer blockers. Also FYI, we can each vote in the blocker bug app. 17:28:44 <brainycmurf> Allan: Photos is the only one not actively maintained. The others are. 17:28:48 <brainycmurf> Michael: WG needs to follow-up on finding someone to work on Photos. 17:28:50 <brainycmurf> - brief discussion between Tomas and Neal on a VPN IPSec related issue https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2081321 17:28:53 <brainycmurf> Allan: F36, let's vote on the individual issues. F37 we need to look at improving the quality of the apps themselves and narrowing the scope of basic functionality criterion. Or drop some apps in a future release. Any strong sense what direction to go in? 17:28:57 <brainycmurf> Owen: Hard to tell what is a showcase app, like Maps, versus provides some need. Reducing the set of apps, and adjusting the release criterion. Prefer having maintained apps, Photos should be well maintained there's a use case there I think. But a lot of this is our of our control. We need to be sensitive to removing apps in one release just to add them back in another. 17:29:02 <brainycmurf> Allan: A lot of apps once considered essential are no longer used to the extent they were. Music, photos, email, and so on. General trend is cloud services. 17:29:05 <brainycmurf> Neal: Process for evolving contributors into maintainers? 17:29:07 <brainycmurf> - seems like the answer is no 17:29:09 <brainycmurf> Neal: I think Photos is still default app because EOG doesn't have certain editing features that Photos has? 17:29:12 <brainycmurf> Allan: yes 17:29:14 <brainycmurf> Neal: KDE have test cases that have helped make bugs/complaints more consistent 17:29:18 <brainycmurf> Allan: link? 17:29:20 <brainycmurf> Neal: Ben? 17:29:22 <brainycmurf> Ben replies: 17:29:24 <brainycmurf> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_36_Final_Release_Criteria#Default_application_functionality 17:29:27 <brainycmurf> I don't see test cases specific to KDE Plasma, but the general desktop test cases are at 17:29:29 <brainycmurf> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Current_Desktop_Test 17:29:31 <brainycmurf> #topic Parental Controls app getting poor reviews 17:29:33 <brainycmurf> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/263 17:29:35 <brainycmurf> Allan: Many complaints about the app and not being able to remove it. Fedora 34 the app launcher was visible. Subsequently changed so it's not visible. So this affects Fedora 34 users. Could dependencies be changed to fix this? 17:29:39 <brainycmurf> Michael points out that low reviews happen for non-removable apps, including many negative Yelp comments. 17:29:42 <brainycmurf> Allan will add a comment, not a big issue but it's on the backlog. 17:29:44 <brainycmurf> #agreed Parental Controls should not be visible in g-c-c 17:29:48 <brainycmurf> Defer the following 17:29:50 <brainycmurf> #topic grub: Show old kernels under a "advanced options"submenu 17:29:52 <brainycmurf> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/282 17:29:54 <brainycmurf> #topic Howdy integration 17:29:56 <brainycmurf> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/272 17:29:58 <brainycmurf> #topic In Repository Gnome Shell Extesions Need Some TLC 17:30:00 <brainycmurf> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/254 17:30:02 <brainycmurf> #topic Announcements, Status Updates 17:30:04 <brainycmurf> #info Go/no go is this Thursday 17:30:06 <brainycmurf> #info Fedora 36 flatpak runtime is almost ready 17:30:08 <brainycmurf> #info F36 release party May 13-14 17:30:10 <brainycmurf> #info Neal: Fedora Media Writer 5.0 is nearly ready, now using Qt6 with native styles on Windows and Mac, and QGnomePlatform for Linux on GNOME 17:30:13 <brainycmurf> #info The minutes from last week have been posted. 17:30:17 <brainycmurf> #link https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-2/2022-04-26/workstation.2022-04-26-20.57.log.html 17:30:36 <brainycmurf> #endmeeting