04:57:20 <brainycmurf> #startmeeting Workstation WG (2023-11-07)
04:57:20 <zodbot> Meeting started Fri Nov 10 04:57:20 2023 UTC.
04:57:20 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
04:57:20 <zodbot> The chair is brainycmurf. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions.
04:57:20 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
04:57:20 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation_wg_(2023-11-07)'
04:57:20 <brainycmurf> #meetingname workstation
04:57:20 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation'
04:57:20 <brainycmurf> #chair Allan
04:57:20 <zodbot> Current chairs: Allan brainycmurf
04:57:20 <brainycmurf> #info Present members: Michael, Kalev, Chris, Kalev, Owen, Neal
04:57:20 <brainycmurf> #info Guests:
04:57:21 <brainycmurf> #info Regrets: Tomas, Matthias, Jens
04:57:23 <brainycmurf> #info Missing:
04:57:25 <brainycmurf> #info Secretary: Michael
04:57:27 <brainycmurf> #topic f39 status
04:57:29 <brainycmurf> Fedora 39 is released!
04:57:31 <brainycmurf> #topic Evaluate our X11 session offering
04:57:33 <brainycmurf> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/395
04:57:35 <brainycmurf> Summary of last week's discussion:
04:57:39 <brainycmurf> * Proprietary NVIDIA driver support
04:57:41 <brainycmurf> * Nouveau is needed for the out of the box experience, but is not viable as a complete replacement for the proprietary driver at the moment
04:57:44 <brainycmurf> * Nouveau isn't currently a viable way to support Cuda
04:57:46 <brainycmurf> * Work on explicit sync support is ongoing
04:57:48 <brainycmurf> * Concerns we've heard about X11 session removal:
04:57:50 <brainycmurf> * DRM leasing - https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/merge_requests/3331
04:57:52 <brainycmurf> * VRR - https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/merge_requests/1154
04:57:54 <brainycmurf> * Screen tearing
04:57:56 <brainycmurf> * Remote desktop - https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-remote-desktop/-/merge_requests/139
04:57:58 <brainycmurf> * Color management
04:58:00 <brainycmurf> * Global key bindings - needed by Orca
04:58:02 <brainycmurf> * Recommendation from the graphics team is to keep the X11 session as a fallback in the short term. This needn't be automatic or exposed in the UI, but could be accessed through the CLI.
04:58:05 <brainycmurf> * Other issues to consider:
04:58:09 <brainycmurf> * Gaps around proprietary apps
04:58:11 <brainycmurf> * Certification for OpenJDK in Wayland (project Wakefield - https://wiki.openjdk.org/display/wakefield/ )
04:58:14 <brainycmurf> * Remote desktop
04:58:16 <brainycmurf> * CI
04:58:18 <brainycmurf> Topic deferred to future meeting
04:58:20 <brainycmurf> #topic NVIDIA driver and UEFI secure boot
04:58:22 <brainycmurf> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/155
04:58:24 <brainycmurf> Summary of the previous discussion:
04:58:26 <brainycmurf> 
04:58:28 <brainycmurf> * NVIDIA proprietary driver can be installed through GNOME Software. However, if secure boot is enabled, you will get broken graphics and nouveau will be blacklisted. It will only work if secure boot is disabled.
04:58:31 <brainycmurf> * Possible actions:
04:58:33 <brainycmurf> * Improve the fallback situation
04:58:35 <brainycmurf> * Have Software detect if secure boot is off and have it adjust accordingly
04:58:39 <brainycmurf> * Find someone to look into automatic enrolement. First step would be to dig into the Ubuntu code. We'd also need to overcome opposition from the Fedora kernel maintainers.
04:58:42 <brainycmurf> Kalev wants to fix things rather than drop NVIDIA driver
04:58:44 <brainycmurf> Neal wants to build NVIDIA open source kernel driver module and ship it alongside the proprietary userspace driver
04:58:47 <brainycmurf> Neal says we can choose between open source vs. proprietary kernel driver. Kalev is enthusiastic about use of open source kernel driver.
04:58:50 <brainycmurf> Owen warns the kernel module version is tightly coupled to the userspace driver version. We'd need to build multiple versions of the kernel driver. Might require complex packaging.
04:58:53 <brainycmurf> Michael questions quality. If no other distros are using the open source kernel driver then are we really confident that it will work well and that users will be satisfied? Neal says Ubuntu and SLES are both using it. Not sure if it is being used by default, though. Michael is sketpcial that users will be satisfied; it doesn't sound like we know whether it really works well.
04:58:58 <brainycmurf> Allan asks who would be doing the work. Neal says he could build kernel modules but doesn't have NVIDIA hardware for testing.
04:59:01 <brainycmurf> Kalev and Neal discuss the update strategy for the packages, since kernel and userspace updates would need to be synced.
04:59:04 <brainycmurf> The ban on packaging out of tree kernel modules in Fedora would have to be removed.
04:59:08 <brainycmurf> #action Michael to ask graphics team about their thoughts on this plan
04:59:10 <brainycmurf> #action Owen to ask kernel team if they will oppose packaging out of tree driver; we think this is likely
04:59:13 <brainycmurf> #action Neal to build driver package for testing
04:59:15 <brainycmurf> Allan: We also need to think about the UI workflow for installing the driver as it's currently buried in GNOME Software
04:59:18 <brainycmurf> Kalev: Also GNOME Software only offers the latest version of the driver, but older versions are required on older hardware
04:59:21 <brainycmurf> #topic Include usbguard by default
04:59:23 <brainycmurf> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/401
04:59:25 <brainycmurf> Allan: this seems like a good feature to have, but we need integration work to ensure we don't accidentally denylist existing USB devices
04:59:28 <brainycmurf> Neal: hesitant, we need to ensure USB devices don't get blocked improperly
04:59:30 <brainycmurf> Michael: the design of this feature (block new USB devices only on lockscreen) is good but not confident it is implemented well.
04:59:33 <brainycmurf> Allan: we should call for testing
04:59:35 <brainycmurf> Michael: Looks like Felipe has tested it and provided a list of fairly simple actions required to make it work properly.
04:59:40 <brainycmurf> Allan: need a volunteer to work on this. Michael mentions that we're having trouble finding volunteers to implement Working Group decisions.
04:59:43 <brainycmurf> #action Allan to advertise that we're looking for someone to help with this
04:59:45 <brainycmurf> #topic Announcements and status updates
04:59:47 <brainycmurf> Kalev has packaged noopenh264 so that Fedora packages can now depend on a dummy OpenH264 at build time, no longer need to be patched to dlopen it. This could also help us with installing the real OpenH264 package automatically as it could simply Obsoletes noopenh264.
04:59:51 <brainycmurf> Neal: This will stop the Chromium sandbox from blocking OpenH264 (the sandbox blocks dlopen).
04:59:53 <brainycmurf> Neal was concerned about upstream maintenance of noopenh264, but Kalev mentions it has moved from Endless to freedesktop-sdk. Michael is generally involved in updating it.
04:59:56 <brainycmurf> Minutes from last week:
04:59:58 <brainycmurf> #link https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-2/2023-11-01/workstation.2023-11-01-15.27.log.html
05:00:01 <brainycmurf> #endmeeting