02:59:54 <brainycmurf> #startmeeting Workstation WG (2024-03-05)
02:59:54 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Mar  6 02:59:54 2024 UTC.
02:59:54 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
02:59:54 <zodbot> The chair is brainycmurf. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions.
02:59:54 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
02:59:54 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation_wg_(2024-03-05)'
02:59:54 <brainycmurf> #meetingname workstation
02:59:54 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation'
02:59:54 <brainycmurf> #chair Michael
02:59:54 <zodbot> Current chairs: Michael brainycmurf
02:59:54 <brainycmurf> #info Present members: Michael, Allan, Kalev, Jens, Matthias, Tomas, Chris, Neal, Owen
02:59:55 <brainycmurf> #info Guests: Matthew Miller
02:59:57 <brainycmurf> #info Regrets:
02:59:59 <brainycmurf> #info Missing:
03:00:01 <brainycmurf> #info Secretary: Matthias
03:00:05 <brainycmurf> Agenda
03:00:07 <brainycmurf> #topic no longer install gnome xorg sessions by default
03:00:09 <brainycmurf> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/414
03:00:11 <brainycmurf> Matthew asks if there's a fallback from Wayland to X11 that is broken by this. Nobody knows, since Wayland
03:00:14 <brainycmurf> doesn't fail very often. We all agree that this is too late for 40, and does not seem like a big deal for 41.
03:00:17 <brainycmurf> Approved. We'll need to add gnome-shell-extensions-xsession to the comps group for F40 then.
03:00:19 <brainycmurf> #topic Working Group meta discussion
03:00:21 <brainycmurf> #info Are we effective at resolving issues and improving Fedora?
03:00:23 <brainycmurf> #info Can we do more to recruit new contributors?
03:00:25 <brainycmurf> We have Matthew today, so we'll discuss this even though Neal isn't around. Matthew points out that the
03:00:28 <brainycmurf> lack of manpower can be demoralizing.
03:00:30 <brainycmurf> (Neal arrives)
03:00:34 <brainycmurf> Allan described the problem as one of the Red Hat team members: we aren't ready to give up control since we
03:00:37 <brainycmurf> care about workstation, but we don't have the necessary resources to actually get many things done. Matthias
03:00:40 <brainycmurf> points out that we may improve this in the future, with some changes to the way we do planning internally in
03:00:43 <brainycmurf> the desktop team.
03:00:45 <brainycmurf> Matthew says that we should look at putting various angles on our efforts: AI, podman-desktop, Silverblue.
03:00:48 <brainycmurf> Neal claims that people aren't excited about "atomic GNOME". People are excited about Kinoite and about building custom experiences, not something generic. The basic frustration that Neal expressed is that lots of feedback get acted on in the GNOME context.
03:00:52 <brainycmurf> Matthew says KDE in Fedora has done a better job at growing longterm community commitments.
03:00:54 <brainycmurf> Owen says that we are focused on fixing problems, without caring where they are fixed. And it is easier to
03:00:57 <brainycmurf> work on larger features in the GNOME context.
03:00:59 <brainycmurf> Matthew brings up the idea of 'theme for a release', which Christian suggested a while ago, and we did not
03:01:04 <brainycmurf> push it much. Tomas said that the resource situation in the desktop team has changed for the worse after
03:01:07 <brainycmurf> this proposal was made.
03:01:09 <brainycmurf> Allan says that we are largely a policy group at this point. Execution should maybe be separated from us.
03:01:12 <brainycmurf> Matthew says this idea of having policy and execution be done together goes all the way back to Matthew Garrett.
03:01:15 <brainycmurf> Matthew says that workstation is still dominant in non-ephemeral Fedora installs. KDE is growing, and XFCE is
03:01:18 <brainycmurf> at a very low level.
03:01:20 <brainycmurf> Chris is not sure if there is a problem here. Asks Matthew about trends in the install data. Answer: coreos and
03:01:23 <brainycmurf> cloud are growing, workstation is more stable than it should be. Suggestion: use AI to generate the graphs.
03:01:26 <brainycmurf> One suggestion that came up in discussion (Kalev): only track issues if there is somebody to work on.
03:01:29 <brainycmurf> Another question is: do we need changes to the Fedora change proposal process? Owen feels that issues
03:01:34 <brainycmurf> mainly affecting Workstation should mainly be discussed and decided in the WG. Matthew takes a note
03:01:37 <brainycmurf> to talk to the Fedora Change wrangler about talking to all stakeholders.
03:01:39 <brainycmurf> Allan feels that we don't have much potential to improve things unless we fix the resource priorization, which
03:01:42 <brainycmurf> as Michael points out, is a RH-internal question. He also points out that we _can_ affect outreach to bring
03:01:45 <brainycmurf> in new contributors.
03:01:47 <brainycmurf> Allan shows his previous list of potential contributor activities: https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/218#comment-722808
03:01:50 <brainycmurf> #topic Announcements and status updates
03:01:52 <brainycmurf> #topic Minutes from last week
03:01:54 <brainycmurf> #link https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-2/2024-02-20/workstation.2024-02-20-19.06.log.html
03:01:57 <brainycmurf> #endmeeting