02:50:06 <brainycmurf> #startmeeting Workstation WG (2025-02-18)
02:50:06 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Feb 19 02:50:06 2025 UTC.
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02:50:06 <zodbot> The chair is brainycmurf. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions.
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02:50:06 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation_wg_(2025-02-18)'
02:50:07 <brainycmurf> #meetingname workstation
02:50:07 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation'
02:50:07 <brainycmurf> #chair Matthias
02:50:07 <brainycmurf> #info Present members:  Matthias Clasen, Kalev Lember, Michael Catanzaro, Chris Murphy, Tomas Popela, Jens-Ulrik Petersen, Neal Gompa, Allan Day
02:50:07 <zodbot> Current chairs: Matthias brainycmurf
02:50:07 <brainycmurf> #info Guests: Yaakov Selkowitz, Matthew Miller, Felipe Borges, Lee Thomas Stephen
02:50:08 <brainycmurf> #info Regrets: Michel Lind
02:50:10 <brainycmurf> #info Missing:
02:50:14 <brainycmurf> #info Secretary: Allan and Neal
02:50:16 <brainycmurf> #topic Deprioritize Fedora Flatpaks and prioritize Flathub in GNOME Software
02:50:18 <brainycmurf> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/463
02:50:20 <brainycmurf> Michael summarized the discussions from the past two weeks
02:50:22 <brainycmurf> Matthew: Flathub packaging quality is more variable than in Fedora. Fedora aims to have consistently high quality - different from Flathub.
02:50:25 <brainycmurf> Michael: we've received some strong feedback that is critical of Fedora Flatpak.
02:50:27 <brainycmurf> Tomas: Fedora Flatpak quality is not universally good or bad - it's more mixed than that. Another factor to consider is architecture support - nothing other than x86 in Flathub?
02:50:30 <brainycmurf> Matthew: we've never advertised any of the advantages of Fedora Flatpaks, which might explain some of the animosity.
02:50:33 <brainycmurf> Matthias: original motivations for Fedora Flatpaks:
02:50:35 <brainycmurf> - To demonstrate/popularize Flatpaks (Flathub wasn't as big back then)
02:50:37 <brainycmurf> - To allow us to preinstall apps in Silverblue
02:50:39 <brainycmurf> Matthew: summarizing the contrasting point of views between central vs distributed delivery model
02:50:41 <brainycmurf> Michael: we can't control whether people package something or not, but we can control what is promoted in the Software center
02:50:46 <brainycmurf> Tomas: Points out that Fedora Flatpaks were pretty terrible with Modularity. This has been been significantly improved with the new tooling from Owen and Yaakov
02:50:49 <brainycmurf> Neal: notes that the new tooling can be used to help improve the quality of Flatpaks regardless of hosting location
02:50:52 <brainycmurf> Allan: we need to be conscious of the fact that there are app developers out there who do not want their apps packaged outside of Flathub, are asking that we don't package their apps, and increasingly feel frustrated and ignored.
02:50:56 <brainycmurf> Matthew: We should be respectful of upstreams, while being mindful of their motivation
02:50:58 <brainycmurf> Yaakov: Explains the history from his perspective. Free software freedoms are not freedoms if we don't exercise them. Would like it if people let him know if there are issues - he doesn't always hear. Many of the bugs are in the RPMs as well. Currently working to improve the Fedora Flatpak story. Flathub Flatpaks are not fit for purpose.
02:51:03 <brainycmurf> Matthias: Question about Yaakov being the "last man standing" in the Flatpak SIG
02:51:05 <brainycmurf> Yaakov: People are starting to show up and may be interested in contributing. Flatpak packaging work is much lighter now: just a sandbox definition (container.yaml) and the regular RPM packaging. Would love to see to get more people involved, he's seeing some interest.
02:51:09 <brainycmurf> Matthias: Question to Yaakov about the OBS situation.
02:51:11 <brainycmurf> Yaakov: Talks about how the situation went down and that more discussion with upstream is happening later today. Mentions the importance of exercising the freedoms of open source software.
02:51:16 <brainycmurf> Neal: Explains how OBS handles not having API keys and OBS okays that and is fine with the RPM.
02:51:18 <brainycmurf> Michael: encourages the group to reconsider the current situation. Thinks we should remove the Fedora Flatpak repository. Believes that there is a very large number of users who are unhappy about the situation.
02:51:21 <brainycmurf> Yaakov doubts how representative social media is in terms of user feedback. Describes Michael's proposal as bizarre.
02:51:24 <brainycmurf> Jens: making the sources reorderable in GNOME Software would solve a lot of this situation.
02:51:26 <brainycmurf> Matthew and Neal: Interested in promoting the tech for supporting even developing Flatpaks on Flathub
02:51:29 <brainycmurf> #topic Announcements, follow-ups, status reports
02:51:31 <brainycmurf> #info Kalev is leaving Red Hat and the Workstation WG. He suggests David King or Nieves Montero to replace him.
02:51:34 <brainycmurf> #info Matthew reminds people the Flock CFP is still open for a few more days. Would like to see a Workstation proposal.
02:51:37 <brainycmurf> #link https://cfp.fedoraproject.org/flock-to-fedora-2025/cfp
02:51:39 <brainycmurf> #info Allan mentions the Linux App Summit CFP was extended. Matthew suggests Yaakov submitting a talk about Fedora Flatpaks there.
02:51:44 <brainycmurf> #link https://conf.linuxappsummit.org/event/7/abstracts/#submit-abstract
02:51:46 <brainycmurf> #info Michel Lind landed gnome-shell-rpm-generators to be used in shell extension packaging. Once the gnome shell beta has landed, he'll announce it to devel@ with finalized packaging guidelines.
02:51:49 <brainycmurf> #link https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/gnome-shell-rpm-generators
02:51:51 <brainycmurf> #link https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/pull-request/1425
02:51:53 <brainycmurf> #topic Open Floor
02:51:55 <brainycmurf> #topic Minutes from previous meeting
02:51:57 <brainycmurf> #link
02:51:59 <brainycmurf> #endmeeting