2024-11-20 18:00:04 <@tdawson:fedora.im> !startmeeting EPEL (2024-11-20)
2024-11-20 18:00:05 <@meetbot:fedora.im> Meeting started at 2024-11-20 18:00:04 UTC
2024-11-20 18:00:06 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting name is 'EPEL (2024-11-20)'
2024-11-20 18:00:11 <@tdawson:fedora.im> !topic aloha
2024-11-20 18:00:11 <@tdawson:fedora.im> !meetingname epel
2024-11-20 18:00:12 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting Name is now epel
2024-11-20 18:00:17 <@salimma:fedora.im> !hi
2024-11-20 18:00:20 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Michel Lind (salimma) - he / him / his
2024-11-20 18:00:27 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> !hi
2024-11-20 18:00:28 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Carl George (carlwgeorge) - he / him / his
2024-11-20 18:00:36 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Hi Michel Lind 🎩 UTC-6 and Carl George 
2024-11-20 18:00:45 <@dherrera:fedora.im> !hi
2024-11-20 18:00:46 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Diego Herrera (dherrera) - he / him / his
2024-11-20 18:01:13 <@smooge:fedora.im> hello
2024-11-20 18:01:33 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Hello Stephen J Smoogen and Diego Herrera 
2024-11-20 18:01:49 <@smooge:fedora.im> I am here until lunch is put on table :)
2024-11-20 18:02:06 <@salimma:fedora.im> an army marches on its stomach :)
2024-11-20 18:03:20 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> !hi
2024-11-20 18:03:21 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Neal Gompa (ngompa) - he / him / his
2024-11-20 18:03:53 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Hi Conan Kudo 
2024-11-20 18:04:13 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> morning (but in another meeting)
2024-11-20 18:04:27 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Morning nirik 
2024-11-20 18:05:12 <@tdawson:fedora.im> !topic EPEL Issues https://pagure.io/epel/issues
2024-11-20 18:05:12 <@tdawson:fedora.im> !link https://pagure.io/epel/issues?tags=meeting&status=Open
2024-11-20 18:05:31 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Looks like we only have the epel10 issue ... so I'm going to switch topics first.
2024-11-20 18:05:38 <@tdawson:fedora.im> !topic EPEL 10
2024-11-20 18:05:44 <@tdawson:fedora.im> !epel 300
2024-11-20 18:05:45 <@zodbot:fedora.im> ● **Last Updated:** a week ago
2024-11-20 18:05:45 <@zodbot:fedora.im> ● **Assignee:** carlwgeorge
2024-11-20 18:05:45 <@zodbot:fedora.im> 
2024-11-20 18:05:45 <@zodbot:fedora.im> ● **Opened:** 4 weeks ago by carlwgeorge
2024-11-20 18:05:45 <@zodbot:fedora.im> **epel #300** (https://pagure.io/epel/issue/300):**EPEL 10 launch**
2024-11-20 18:07:04 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> as folks may have noticed, we did not launch on our original target date (yesterday).  we're moving the target forward two weeks to hopefully get a few things resolved, including centos secureboot, the centos website, and the epel docs.
2024-11-20 18:07:33 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> that means the new target date is december 3rd
2024-11-20 18:07:35 <@tdawson:fedora.im> All three of those things are worth cheering for when they get done.
2024-11-20 18:08:21 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> that's all i have for the epel10 launch itself, but there is another epel10 thing i need to bring up
2024-11-20 18:08:39 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> !link https://issues.redhat.com/browse/RHEL-68034
2024-11-20 18:09:57 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> while working on the text for the release announcement, i tried to use epel-release in the rhel 10 beta.  i expected it to fail and i wanted to capture the exact error message, but to my surprise it worked.  rhel 10 is not setting releasever_minor, which we depend on for pointing rhel to a separate repo from centos.
2024-11-20 18:10:04 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> it just means that kde will be fully available at launch :D
2024-11-20 18:10:32 <@smooge:fedora.im> rhel 10 beta  you mean or rhel 10 ?
2024-11-20 18:11:16 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> both, the rhel 10 beta is not setting the variable, and unless something changes then it will be the same way in rhel 10 ga
2024-11-20 18:11:44 <@smooge:fedora.im> ah ok. I have a hazy memory that something like that happened every beta 
2024-11-20 18:12:14 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yeah it's always a little goofy at beta
2024-11-20 18:12:26 <@smooge:fedora.im> it went back to when RHL had 5.99.1 for the beta before 6 and 6.99.1 before 7
2024-11-20 18:12:28 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> option 1 is changing the main releasever to match the logic that was added to dnf to split it into major/minor, which is itself simple but could have major ripple effects
2024-11-20 18:12:47 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> option 2 is changing the dnf logic, which is more complex but more compatible coming from rhel 9
2024-11-20 18:12:52 <@smooge:fedora.im> and was a point of arguments in RHEL because it wasn't "0" until we release "0" or even ".1"
2024-11-20 18:14:14 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> hopefully we can get one or the other done, we have a little time but it does need to happen before rhel 10 ga.  if it doesn't, we're looking at significant rework of epel10 repo structure and the release package.
2024-11-20 18:14:38 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I would prefer option 1, it would also make sense to ask the folks managing the rhel docs to add some notes in the considerations for rhel 10 doc about the new releasever vars
2024-11-20 18:15:18 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> yup, there is a section in the considerations doc for dnf changes, and even now it's missing mention of the addition of releasever_major
2024-11-20 18:15:26 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> and releasever_minor
2024-11-20 18:15:45 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I could see it being useful for cases like content that is only supported for EUS releases
2024-11-20 18:15:46 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> https://docs.redhat.com/en/documentation/red_hat_enterprise_linux/10-beta/html/considerations_in_adopting_rhel_10/software-management#notable-changes-to-dnf
2024-11-20 18:16:16 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> if there was somewhere for me to submit a doc, I'd do it :P
2024-11-20 18:16:21 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> well currently releasever_minor is an empty string, so not really worth mentioning in the current state, but yes we want that to also get set appropriately and mentioned in the doc
2024-11-20 18:17:09 <@salimma:fedora.im> option 1 does seem less of a tech debt going forward
2024-11-20 18:17:31 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> at this point we're waiting on feedback from the dnf and subman teams
2024-11-20 18:17:36 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> right, it makes it unlikely that releasever will change structure in the future, and maps cleanly to how RHEL is maintained/released
2024-11-20 18:17:51 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> i would also prefer option 1, it's just a bit of a harder sell post-beta
2024-11-20 18:18:21 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> tbh, option 1 is the outcome I originally expected and planned for
2024-11-20 18:19:28 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> yeah it's what i expected too, and if you read the code releasever does get set to 10.0 (the version of the redhat-release package), but then it gets overwritten to the provided value of `system-release(releasever)`, which is just 10
2024-11-20 18:19:45 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yeah, I had assumed that rhel would have fixed it for redhat-release
2024-11-20 18:20:01 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> we obviously want it to be just 10 for centos-stream-release
2024-11-20 18:20:09 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> exactly
2024-11-20 18:21:45 <@tdawson:fedora.im> At this point, is there anything we (the EPEL committee) can do?  Or are we just waiting for a decision from someone?
2024-11-20 18:22:14 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> the latter, just wait for now.  mainly bringing it up for awareness.
2024-11-20 18:22:33 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> one more epel10 thing, we need to start thinking ahead to the epel10.0 mass branching.  it will happen around the same time as the f42 mass branching, but we should be nice to releng and not try to do both in the same exact week.
2024-11-20 18:23:19 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> f42 mass branching is currently scheduled for the week of 2025-02-04, so i'm thinking we start epel10.0 mass branching the week after that
2024-11-20 18:23:40 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> does that still ensure we're before the window of c10s switching to 10.1 content?
2024-11-20 18:23:48 <@salimma:fedora.im> when epel10.0 mass branching happens, I'll help fix `fedrq` to understand how to query it
2024-11-20 18:23:50 <@smooge:fedora.im> mass branching as in epel10.0->epel10.1 or something else?
2024-11-20 18:23:59 <@salimma:fedora.im> probably can't happen sooner than that I guess
2024-11-20 18:24:01 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> epel10->epel10.0
2024-11-20 18:24:07 <@salimma:fedora.im> what Neal said
2024-11-20 18:24:15 <@smooge:fedora.im> ah got it
2024-11-20 18:24:30 <@smooge:fedora.im> epel10 is now epel10-stream
2024-11-20 18:24:36 <@salimma:fedora.im> there's no mass rebuild involved right? we just do targeted rebuilds of whatever is reported as not working
2024-11-20 18:24:46 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> there shouldn't be any, yeah
2024-11-20 18:24:54 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> but that's why I'm asking about the content shift window
2024-11-20 18:25:28 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> yes, that timing is intentional to match that.  after the mass branching, we'll create a c10 snapshot in batcave, change the 10.0 stuff to use it until rhel 10.0 comes out, and also create the 10.1 stuff for the epel10 branch to switch to.
2024-11-20 18:25:47 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> cool
2024-11-20 18:26:40 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> the comparison will be branching epel10.0 from epel10, like we branch f42 from rawhide
2024-11-20 18:27:27 <@tdawson:fedora.im> This is exciting, our first real branch.   So much to work ... such possibility of failure ... exciting.
2024-11-20 18:27:44 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> ideally it's not that special :P
2024-11-20 18:27:46 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> correct, no mass rebuild, the new epel10.1 tag will be created as a copy of the epel10.0 tag, so existing builds with epel10.0 will then have both epel10.0 and epel10.1 tags
2024-11-20 18:27:53 <@salimma:fedora.im> "may you live in interesting times"
2024-11-20 18:28:11 <@salimma:fedora.im> you mean the new epel10.0 is a copy of epel10 :)
2024-11-20 18:28:12 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Not that I think it will fail ... but ... there is always something that get's forgotten.
2024-11-20 18:28:31 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Or maybe it's just me that that happens to. :)
2024-11-20 18:29:29 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> nope, i meant what i said, specific to the koji tags.  i'll literally be running `koji clone-tag --all --latest-only epel10.0 epel10.1`.
2024-11-20 18:29:53 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> and then repointing the alias to epel10.1
2024-11-20 18:29:56 <@salimma:fedora.im> ah. yeah but that's later right
2024-11-20 18:30:02 <@salimma:fedora.im> not for the 10->10.0 branch
2024-11-20 18:30:44 <@salimma:fedora.im> I might have missed when we started talking about 10.1
2024-11-20 18:30:54 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> to be clear, there is no such thing as an alias, but there is an epel10 build target that will get changed from a build tag of epel10.0-build to epel10.1-build
2024-11-20 18:31:10 <@salimma:fedora.im> oooh. now this makes sense
2024-11-20 18:32:13 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> several things happen around the same time, we basically need the 10.1 tags right after we do the 10.0 branching
2024-11-20 18:32:46 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> if anyone wants a refresher, check out the tables in this slide deck https://carlwgeorge.fedorapeople.org/presentations/epel-10-hackfest-2024-flock.pdf
2024-11-20 18:32:50 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> so you'd probably do the tags first, then the branch, no?
2024-11-20 18:32:50 <@salimma:fedora.im> yeah. it's just like Fedora branching, when f41 is branched rawhide is f42
2024-11-20 18:33:34 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> the exact sop and order of operations is still being worked out, as we've never done this before
2024-11-20 18:33:49 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> fair
2024-11-20 18:34:00 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> you've got five months to figure it out :)
2024-11-20 18:34:08 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Are there any other epel10 stuff before we move on?
2024-11-20 18:34:09 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> oh actually no
2024-11-20 18:34:12 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> only three
2024-11-20 18:34:19 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> i think that covers it all for now
2024-11-20 18:34:24 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Is there any other epel10 stuff before we move on?
2024-11-20 18:34:35 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Ok, I'm going to move on to old business
2024-11-20 18:34:44 <@tdawson:fedora.im> !topic Old Business
2024-11-20 18:34:47 <@salimma:fedora.im> I have an old business
2024-11-20 18:34:55 <@salimma:fedora.im> unless Stephen J Smoogen wants to go first :)
2024-11-20 18:34:57 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Michel Lind 🎩 UTC-6: go for it.
2024-11-20 18:35:20 <@salimma:fedora.im> https://pagure.io/epel/pull-request/307 - thanks for the feedback re: revising our stalled request procedure. I'll take another pass Thursday or Friday
2024-11-20 18:35:29 <@salimma:fedora.im> so if anyone wants to give extra feedback please do so today
2024-11-20 18:35:55 <@salimma:fedora.im> as I noted in a comment, FESCo will also be adopting some form of this, but the consensus there seems to be that we can get by with only 7+3 days so you can get access in 10 days (which will be wild)
2024-11-20 18:36:13 <@salimma:fedora.im> there's likely going to be a .. spirited.. discussion in devel@ before that is finalized though
2024-11-20 18:36:24 <@smooge:fedora.im> It's my birthday today so I need to wait until Older Business
2024-11-20 18:36:38 <@salimma:fedora.im> (everyone seems sick and tired of some package maintainers developing a sense of proprietariness over 'their' packages)
2024-11-20 18:36:42 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> oof, i thought fesco was making it longer at four weeks, not shorter
2024-11-20 18:36:53 <@salimma:fedora.im> Happy birthday smooge!
2024-11-20 18:37:04 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Oohh ... if we can drop the time ... that would be nice.
2024-11-20 18:37:10 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Happy Birthday Stephen J Smoogen 🎂
2024-11-20 18:37:12 <@salimma:fedora.im> last week I was asked to make it 4 weeks, then when people saw the draft they seem to think that's too long :P
2024-11-20 18:37:32 <@tdawson:fedora.im> It's waaayyyy to long.
2024-11-20 18:37:39 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> that would make it longer than our other processes
2024-11-20 18:37:40 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> while i don't personally mind it being shorter, i know we got negative feedback when we had it at two weeks, hence extending it to three
2024-11-20 18:37:41 <@salimma:fedora.im> the barrier of entry for the fesco flow will be higher though e.g. you'll need a PR that works and the fesco member approving should check that PR first
2024-11-20 18:37:54 <@salimma:fedora.im> I did mention that :)
2024-11-20 18:38:01 <@tdawson:fedora.im> I've noticed that if it isn't responded to after the second ping, it sits there forever, months.
2024-11-20 18:38:11 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yeah, it's not great
2024-11-20 18:38:16 <@salimma:fedora.im> yeah, and the requester will probably forget too if the flow is too long
2024-11-20 18:38:27 <@salimma:fedora.im> anyway.. just to mention. it's still worth revising ours for the time being anyway
2024-11-20 18:38:39 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> i definitely like that this will make the policy not epel specific, and be for all of fedora
2024-11-20 18:38:40 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Yep ... I just found one of mine from epel9 while I was doing some digging.
2024-11-20 18:39:04 <@salimma:fedora.im> yeah. we should throw a graduation party when that fesco policy is adopted :)
2024-11-20 18:39:17 <@salimma:fedora.im> so.. let's do Older Business unless someone else has an old biz
2024-11-20 18:39:36 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Michel Lind 🎩 UTC-6: Thank you for updating this.  I know I haven't commented, but I have read it several times.
2024-11-20 18:41:14 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Did we want to talk about the EPEL Packagers SIG, I think that's old business, or should we just put a link in to the discussion ?
2024-11-20 18:42:01 <@tdawson:fedora.im> !link https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/deprecating-the-epel-packagers-sig/137923
2024-11-20 18:42:37 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> yes, please send your feedback there
2024-11-20 18:42:54 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> i also linked it from the mailing list, but i'm not closely watching for replies there
2024-11-20 18:42:57 <@tdawson:fedora.im> I'm fine with the discussion being there, I just wanted to make sure people saw where last weeks discussion went to.
2024-11-20 18:43:04 <@salimma:fedora.im> ooh fun
2024-11-20 18:43:19 <@tdawson:fedora.im> There haven't been any replies on the mailling list, I think everyone did what you said.
2024-11-20 18:43:37 <@salimma:fedora.im> it will be interesting if EPEL discussion is more active on discourse, even though we should be the more conservative group
2024-11-20 18:43:57 <@salimma:fedora.im> our mailing list is so inactive I admit I only check it every few days
2024-11-20 18:44:59 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> there was a recent fedora thread that did the same, asked to focus the discussion in discourse, and then the replies to the email thread outnumbered the discourse thread like 4 to 1
2024-11-20 18:45:16 <@tdawson:fedora.im> I'm going to move to the open floor ...
2024-11-20 18:45:19 <@tdawson:fedora.im> !topic General Issues / Open Floor
2024-11-20 18:45:26 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Does anyone have anything for Open Floor?
2024-11-20 18:46:00 <@salimma:fedora.im> the 42 one huh
2024-11-20 18:46:08 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Sorry for cutting the discussion off, but it was more of a discussion of email/discord so I figured open floor was better.
2024-11-20 18:46:20 <@salimma:fedora.im> yeah. and we should get to Older Business :)
2024-11-20 18:46:43 <@smooge:fedora.im> well the people old enough to remember the Hitchhikers Guide are all going to be using email versus discourse </hot take to get in trouble>
2024-11-20 18:47:24 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Which Hitchhikers Guide?  The radio show, book, tv-series or movie?
2024-11-20 18:47:43 <@smooge:fedora.im> Even the movie is over 20 years old
2024-11-20 18:48:00 <@salimma:fedora.im> I feel old now
2024-11-20 18:48:02 <@tdawson:fedora.im> *laughs* ... ok ... I admit it.  I remember them all, and I do use email.
2024-11-20 18:48:03 <@smooge:fedora.im> Bilbo Baggins looks so young in it
2024-11-20 18:48:27 <@salimma:fedora.im> I think I knew h2g2 first from the book then from watching the radio recordings... on CD
2024-11-20 18:48:27 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> i hate realizing something i remember as being more recent is decades old
2024-11-20 18:48:59 <@salimma:fedora.im> instead of Hope it says No Hope
2024-11-20 18:49:04 <@salimma:fedora.im> hmm I wonder if I still have it
2024-11-20 18:49:29 <@smooge:fedora.im> Well I think its time to end this meeting. I have a couple more million years to wait here in this car park
2024-11-20 18:49:49 <@smooge:fedora.im> and my pizza birthday meal is here.
2024-11-20 18:50:05 <@salimma:fedora.im> 🍕
2024-11-20 18:50:07 <@smooge:fedora.im> have a good day and thanks for the fish
2024-11-20 18:50:12 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Happy Birthday!!
2024-11-20 18:50:29 <@dherrera:fedora.im> Happy Birthday :)!
2024-11-20 18:50:30 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I will get a pizza in your honor :)
2024-11-20 18:50:34 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Any other Open Floor items?
2024-11-20 18:52:02 <@tdawson:fedora.im> I'm good ending the meeting a bit early if others are ok with it.
2024-11-20 18:52:16 <@zodbot:fedora.im> salimma has already given cookies to tdawson during the F41 timeframe
2024-11-20 18:52:20 <@zodbot:fedora.im> dherrera gave a cookie to tdawson. They now have 80 cookies, 3 of which were obtained in the Fedora 41 release cycle
2024-11-20 18:52:42 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Thank you all for coming and for the good discussions.  And thank you all for all you do for EPEL and it's community.
2024-11-20 18:52:57 <@zodbot:fedora.im> ngompa gave a cookie to tdawson. They now have 81 cookies, 4 of which were obtained in the Fedora 41 release cycle
2024-11-20 18:53:03 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Oh ... and with that, I rememberd one thing.  I will not be available next week.
2024-11-20 18:53:20 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> we can just cancel next week since that's Thanksgiving week anyway
2024-11-20 18:53:24 <@tdawson:fedora.im> It is the day beofore a U.S. holiday, and I will be traveling.
2024-11-20 18:53:35 <@carlwgeorge:matrix.org> yeah lets cancel it
2024-11-20 18:53:36 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Yep.  Are we ok canceling next week?
2024-11-20 18:54:16 <@dherrera:fedora.im> sure ^^
2024-11-20 18:54:36 <@salimma:fedora.im> I'll be oncall for both work and the kid so I don't mind not having meetings :)
2024-11-20 18:54:45 <@tdawson:fedora.im> Sounds like an agreement.   We'll cancel next weeks meeting.
2024-11-20 18:55:07 <@tdawson:fedora.im> I'll talk to ya'll in two weeks ... Dec 4th.
2024-11-20 18:55:28 <@tdawson:fedora.im> For those having a holiday, have a great holiday.  For those that aren't ... have a good week with one less meeting.
2024-11-20 18:55:39 <@tdawson:fedora.im> !endmeeting