15:00:55 <sgallagh> #startmeeting FESCO (2020-12-02)
15:00:55 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Dec  2 15:00:55 2020 UTC.
15:00:55 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
15:00:55 <zodbot> The chair is sgallagh. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:00:55 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:00:55 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco_(2020-12-02)'
15:00:55 <sgallagh> #meetingname fesco
15:00:55 <sgallagh> #chair nirik, ignatenkobrain, decathorpe, zbyszek, sgallagh, mhroncok, dcantrell, cverna, Conan_Kudo, Pharaoh_Atem, Son_Goku, King_InuYasha, Sir_Gallantmon, Eighth_Doctor
15:00:55 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco'
15:00:55 <zodbot> Current chairs: Conan_Kudo Eighth_Doctor King_InuYasha Pharaoh_Atem Sir_Gallantmon Son_Goku cverna dcantrell decathorpe ignatenkobrain mhroncok nirik sgallagh zbyszek
15:00:55 <sgallagh> #topic init process
15:01:03 <decathorpe> .hello2
15:01:04 <zodbot> decathorpe: decathorpe 'Fabio Valentini' <decathorpe@gmail.com>
15:01:06 <sgallagh> .hello2
15:01:06 <bcotton> .hello2
15:01:07 <zodbot> sgallagh: sgallagh 'Stephen Gallagher' <sgallagh@redhat.com>
15:01:10 <zodbot> bcotton: bcotton 'Ben Cotton' <bcotton@redhat.com>
15:01:11 <dcantrell> .hello2
15:01:11 <King_InuYasha> .hello ngompa
15:01:16 <zodbot> dcantrell: dcantrell 'David Cantrell' <dcantrell@redhat.com>
15:01:17 <nirik> morning
15:01:18 <zodbot> King_InuYasha: ngompa 'Neal Gompa' <ngompa13@gmail.com>
15:01:45 <cverna> I am kind of around o/
15:01:48 <jlaw> morning...  here to answer any questions you may have...
15:02:00 <sgallagh> jlaw: What is the meaning of life?
15:02:08 <jlaw> 42, of course
15:02:41 <sgallagh> Well, I think that settles things
15:02:56 <bcotton> jlaw: why do fools fall in love?
15:03:30 <sgallagh> I'll give folks two more minutes to appear.
15:03:36 <jlaw> :-)  maybe they're not fools if they're in love? :-)
15:03:37 <zbyszek> .hello2
15:03:37 <sgallagh> mhroncok let me know he'd be unavailable
15:03:37 <zodbot> zbyszek: zbyszek 'Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek' <zbyszek@in.waw.pl>
15:03:57 <copperi> .
15:04:32 <sgallagh> OK, I think we can get started.
15:04:36 <sgallagh> Short agenda today.
15:04:46 <sgallagh> #topic #2507 F34 Change: GNU Toolchain update (gcc 11, glibc 2.33)
15:04:46 <sgallagh> .fesco 2507
15:04:47 <zodbot> sgallagh: Issue #2507: F34 Change: GNU Toolchain update (gcc 11, glibc 2.33) - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2507
15:05:42 * nirik was +1 in ticket... I guess we just stamp this unless someone has a issue?
15:05:50 <sgallagh> We already have +7 on the ticket, but I requested that we put it on the agenda to finalize the decision so the toolchain folks can get this in place quicker.
15:05:53 <decathorpe> The only misgivings I have about this is that glibc 2.33 breaks stuff in weird ways in all kinds of environments :/
15:06:03 <sgallagh> More time in Rawhide == more time to fix issues.
15:06:25 <sgallagh> decathorpe: What are you seeing?
15:06:47 <decathorpe> .bug 1869030
15:06:49 <zodbot> decathorpe: 1869030 – glibc: Back out glibc-rhbz1869030-faccessat2-eperm.patch workaround for systemd UAPI breakage - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/1869030
15:07:10 <jlaw> ah, yes, that's a mess.  Carlos and Florian own that issue
15:07:11 <decathorpe> this is already in rawhide, so it doesn't change my vote, but I still think it's bad
15:07:50 <sgallagh> Then it's in good hands in my opinion.
15:07:59 * King_InuYasha shrugs
15:08:08 <jlaw> i think they're still negotiating with seccomp and kernel folks on the right path forward
15:08:28 <King_InuYasha> I gave it +1 because I don't expect anything to be any better with this verses the normal case
15:08:41 <jlaw> but as decathorpe notes, that's already in rawhide and we *have* to get it resolved
15:08:48 <dcantrell> we've seen this sort of stuff before and really the only decision is forward and fix things
15:08:55 <King_InuYasha> tons of things will break, we'll still have issues with fixing code, and so on
15:08:58 <sgallagh> dcantrell: +1
15:09:21 <decathorpe> yeah. which is why I still voted +1. just wanted people to be aware of possible pitfalls.
15:09:26 <sgallagh> King_InuYasha: I'm optimistic that breaking things earlier is better
15:09:39 <King_InuYasha> it is, as long as someone is paying attention
15:09:43 <dcantrell> decathorpe: yeah, it's good to be aware of this sort of thing and to know the temporary workarounds that exist (if any)
15:10:28 <jlaw> decathorpe: absolutely.  Jakub wants to be more conservative for gcc than we've been with glibc, but still get the gcc bits in earlier than we have in the past (Now vs Jan/Feb)
15:11:39 <King_InuYasha> if someone is paying attention and we don't have the compiler continuously broken because of annobin<->gcc things, then meh, let's do this
15:11:42 <sgallagh> Does anyone want to vote -1 or shall we certify the current vote at +7 ?
15:11:48 <bcotton> i'll note that it would be good to have proposals in before code lands in rawhide. change proposals can be submitted any time (we already have an approved F35 proposal)
15:12:10 <jlaw> King InuYasha: I think we've got the annobin vs gcc stuff sorted out starting with gcc-11
15:12:21 <jlaw> I can go into the details, but they're probably too low level for here
15:12:21 <decathorpe> that's great news :-)
15:12:43 <jlaw> yea, it's been a huge headache
15:12:45 <King_InuYasha> yay
15:12:54 <King_InuYasha> :D
15:14:22 <zbyszek> sgallagh: there seems to be no disagreement, I think we can proceed.
15:14:44 <sgallagh> Anyone present that wants to add their +1 who didn't do so on the ticket?
15:14:44 * nirik nods
15:15:23 <sgallagh> Nope, we all have
15:15:45 <sgallagh> #agreed F34 Change: GNU Toolchain update (gcc 11, glibc 2.33) is accepted (+7, 0, -0)
15:15:55 <sgallagh> We have one late addition to the agenda:
15:16:29 <sgallagh> #topic #2501 F34 System-Wide Change: Remove nscd in favour of sssd and systemd-resolved
15:16:29 <sgallagh> .fesco 2501
15:16:30 <zodbot> sgallagh: Issue #2501: F34 System-Wide Change: Remove nscd in favour of sssd and systemd-resolved - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2501
15:17:04 <sgallagh> arjun has updated the proposal as requested
15:17:18 <dcantrell> I haven't read the updated proposal, doing so now
15:17:26 * nirik is still +1
15:17:33 <King_InuYasha> I'm still gravy with it
15:17:43 <sgallagh> jlaw: If you're still here, what is the toolchain's perspective on the topic?
15:18:04 <King_InuYasha> my only feedback here is that the Change page itself should be renamed
15:18:11 <King_InuYasha> since we're not removing nscd anymore
15:18:13 <jlaw> it's something we certainly want to do...  arjun is working on Carlos & Florian's behalf on this issue
15:18:34 <zbyszek> arjun "moved the needle" completely towards pure deprecation, with no plan for "removal". Should be move the needle back a bit and approve removal in F35? Or should that happen latter, separately?
15:18:44 <decathorpe> proposal sounds good to me, changing my vote from 0 to +1
15:19:05 <King_InuYasha> I would like to see a "remove nscd" proposal made for us to approve for F35
15:19:19 <sgallagh> I'm somewhat biased, given my history with SSSD, but I'm a firm +1 to shooting nscd in the head, burying it in the woods and then burning the map to it.
15:19:21 <zbyszek> King_InuYasha: yeah, that'd be ideal
15:19:24 <King_InuYasha> if the previous proposal was split into two, one for f34 and one for f35, I'd approve it today
15:19:28 <jlaw> yea, if we can't get to removal this cycle, we should queue it up for the next cycle
15:19:56 <dcantrell> King_InuYasha: agreed, s/Remove/Deprecate/ on this proposal and a new one to remove for F35
15:19:59 * nirik is fine with removal now, but sounds like others would prefer to wait more to let the info get out
15:20:11 <jlaw> i can relay that to arjun & carlos
15:20:13 <sgallagh> jlaw: I think we've agreed *not* to remove it in F34, to give time for users to adapt.
15:20:27 <King_InuYasha> nirik: don't get me wrong, I think we should purge it now, but if people want to slow-roll it, fine
15:20:32 <jlaw> yup, that's my reading from here
15:20:34 <nirik> yeah.
15:20:55 <King_InuYasha> basically, my ask is that I want a removal proposal ASAP for fesco to approve
15:21:08 <jlaw> slower than the glibc team would prefer, but I think deprecating now and removal in f35 is reasonable
15:21:18 <jlaw> and I'll ask arjun to get the f35 proposal in immediately
15:21:40 <zbyszek> jlaw++
15:21:40 <zodbot> zbyszek: Karma for jlaw changed to 1 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
15:21:44 <King_InuYasha> the benefit of doing so is that we can get other distros to also start implementing the change and drop their dep on nscd
15:21:52 <zbyszek> arjun++
15:21:52 <zodbot> zbyszek: Karma for submachine changed to 1 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
15:21:57 <King_InuYasha> which means that dropping nscd from glibc can happen _faster_
15:22:24 * smooge gets nostalgic about all the flame wars and this is killing Linux when nscd appeared. I should see who many of those are now posting hate emails about it going away
15:22:33 <King_InuYasha> haha
15:22:42 <bcotton> smooge++
15:22:42 <zodbot> bcotton: Karma for smooge changed to 5 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
15:22:43 <dcantrell> smooge: part of me is absolutely expecting a few threads like that
15:22:54 <Conan_Kudo> smooge++
15:22:54 <zodbot> Conan_Kudo: Karma for smooge changed to 6 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
15:23:05 <King_InuYasha> I *absolutely* expect it
15:23:20 <smooge> I mean pulseaudio is now the bee's knees once you say you are going to replace it
15:23:20 <arjun> I'm happy to write a separate proposal. Actually, maybe I will move the current one to DeprecateNSCD, and edit this back to a removal.
15:23:24 <arjun> How does that sound?
15:23:24 <nirik> I am glad I don't have to killall nscd anymore. ;)
15:23:24 <dcantrell> but that is sort of the point.  marking it deprecated will at least give those users an opportunity to be heard
15:23:26 <sgallagh> OK, let's get a final vote:
15:23:26 <sgallagh> Proposal: Accept the Change as it stands with today's updates
15:23:33 <jlaw> ah, didn't know you were here arjun
15:23:34 <dcantrell> and not be surprised when nscd is actually removed
15:23:43 <arjun> jlaw: Hi :)
15:24:18 <sgallagh> We should probably nudge the PR team to emphasize this impending removal too.
15:24:31 * sgallagh looks pointedly in bcotton's direction
15:24:33 <zbyszek> arjun: yeah, I think that'd be better, because the page name is "RemoveNSCD", and that's a bit confusing.
15:24:34 <nirik> so perhaps we just wait and approve both next week?
15:24:41 <King_InuYasha> arjun: perfect!
15:24:45 <nirik> unless there is a hurry?
15:25:00 <sgallagh> nirik: I'd rather start he communication of this rolling, personally.
15:25:14 <King_InuYasha> well, make the new deprecate page, and mark that approved
15:25:16 <King_InuYasha> that's easy enough
15:25:16 <sgallagh> If we know we're going to approve it next week anyway, why wait?
15:25:30 <King_InuYasha> and we can also pre-approve the removal page, knowing it's just the other half
15:25:38 <sgallagh> Yes
15:25:40 <King_InuYasha> since we had the original combined proposal
15:25:42 <nirik> so we know what we are approving exactly, but ok... whatever.
15:25:53 <sgallagh> Revised Proposal: Approve deprecation for F34 and removal for F35
15:26:03 <King_InuYasha> sgallagh: +1
15:26:05 <zbyszek> sgallagh: +1
15:26:08 <sgallagh> +1
15:26:12 <nirik> +1
15:26:13 <dcantrell> +1
15:26:23 <decathorpe> +1
15:27:11 <sgallagh> #agreed Deprecation of nscd is approved for F34, removal of nscd is approved for F35 (+6, 0, -0)
15:27:15 <arjun> For my part, I will (a) create a new DeprecateNSCD proposal, for F35. And (b) edit back the current page to be a removal proposal, but for F35.
15:27:26 <arjun> Sorry, Deprecate for F34.
15:27:35 <dcantrell> and update the links on the fesco ticket
15:27:37 <King_InuYasha> sounds good
15:27:41 <dcantrell> and probably change the fesco ticket title
15:27:48 <sgallagh> #action arjun will split the Change proposal for F34 and F35 and update the FESCo ticket with the new links.
15:28:32 <sgallagh> bcotton: Once those appear, go ahead and proceed with the post-acceptance process.
15:28:39 <bcotton> sgallagh: ack
15:28:42 <sgallagh> Thanks
15:28:54 <bcotton> i'll still post on devel-announce for transparency
15:28:57 <sgallagh> ack
15:29:06 <sgallagh> #topic Next week's chair
15:29:41 * sgallagh takes the potato off the grill, lobs it.
15:29:51 <jlaw> as always, if there's a toolchain issue that's not getting the attention it needs, don't hesitate to reach out to me directly and I'll start chasing folks down
15:30:00 <jlaw> law@redhat.com
15:30:45 <sgallagh> jlaw++
15:30:45 <zodbot> sgallagh: Karma for jlaw changed to 2 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
15:30:57 <zbyszek> Is next week after election results? (That's me deflecting the veggie spinning down from above.)
15:30:58 <Conan_Kudo> jlaw++
15:30:58 <zodbot> Conan_Kudo: Karma for jlaw changed to 3 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
15:31:00 <sgallagh> He's not kidding, I've seen his Mandalorian armor
15:31:11 <bcotton> zbyszek: yes, it is
15:31:27 <sgallagh> Oh yeah, I need to go vote...
15:31:33 <King_InuYasha> O.o
15:32:00 <zbyszek> So it's either ignatenkobrain (who's not here) or King_InuYasha or cverna
15:32:31 <King_InuYasha> next week is a heavy week for me, I'm not even sure if I'll be here or not
15:32:51 <King_InuYasha> (it's my last week of work before PTO to the end of the year)
15:33:36 <King_InuYasha> but if cverna can't, I can do it
15:33:57 <dcantrell> I am on PTO starting Dec 7th and returning Jan 4th.  Similar to mhroncok, I will check fesco mail and tickets weekly but otherwise can't guarantee I will be around for meetings.
15:34:01 <sgallagh> I'll take it again if that's the only real choice.
15:34:08 * bcotton can be a non-member chair if needed
15:34:20 <King_InuYasha> oh right, bcotton exists :)
15:34:36 <cverna> sorry catching up
15:34:48 <sgallagh> King_InuYasha: I'm not convinced
15:34:54 <cverna> I can chair next week
15:34:57 <sgallagh> Oh, thanks
15:35:01 <King_InuYasha> excellent!
15:35:08 <sgallagh> #action cverna will chair the next meeting
15:35:14 <sgallagh> #topic Open Floor
15:35:23 * bcotton has two things for open floor
15:35:25 * sgallagh peers into the shark tank
15:35:34 <sgallagh> bcotton: You have the floor
15:36:11 <bcotton> #info Elections voting ends at 2359 UTC on Thursday: https://elections.fedoraproject.org
15:36:14 <nirik> after that I wonder if we shouldn't figure out which meetings we are skipping due to holidays. Or should we just wait until after elections?
15:36:15 <bcotton> also
15:36:43 <zbyszek> nirik: that'd be probably more effective to do with the new cast
15:36:56 * nirik nods, ok
15:36:57 <King_InuYasha> yeah, I'd say let's wait for next Thursday
15:36:57 <sgallagh> Yes, especially if we end up moving the meeting time
15:37:05 <King_InuYasha> err Wednesday
15:37:06 <bcotton> iirc miro set up the labels on the FESCo repo initially, but are there any objections to replacing the F* labels with pagure milestones instead? this way we can keep some of the cruft hidden
15:37:22 <bcotton> i don't know if anyone is using the labels for anything, so i don't want to break it
15:37:36 <King_InuYasha> I think milestones make sense for that
15:37:38 <bcotton> but milestones seem like a better fit for tracking release-specific issues
15:37:40 <King_InuYasha> since they are timelines
15:37:48 <King_InuYasha> and we can attach dates and stuff to close milestones
15:37:48 <sgallagh> Yeah, that seems reasonable.
15:38:22 <zbyszek> Yeah, milestones are reasonable for this.
15:38:31 <nirik> sure. although...
15:38:50 <nirik> it's sometimes hard to use fedora release dates as milestones... since we have alternates/etc
15:39:14 <King_InuYasha> well, no, we wouldn't use that for our milestones
15:39:19 <King_InuYasha> we'd use the change deadline
15:39:24 <King_InuYasha> that's pretty much fixed
15:39:30 <sgallagh> That's a good idea
15:39:34 <bcotton> nirik: i'm just thinking of making "f34" a milestone instead of a label. no dates for pagure's purposes
15:39:52 <sgallagh> bcotton: I think having the change deadline as a date makes sense
15:39:56 <nirik> sure, thats fine
15:40:09 <nirik> (to bcotton )
15:40:25 <King_InuYasha> if we're not using dates, there's no meaningful reason to switch from labels
15:41:21 <bcotton> King_InuYasha: yes there is. we don't end up with lots of unused labels clogging the ui. and since labels are used for other purposes, that's an advantage
15:41:36 <King_InuYasha> hmm, I guess I hadn't thought of that
15:41:36 <bcotton> also, i think with closed milestones, they don't appear in the drop down (but I could be wrong)
15:41:55 <sgallagh> bcotton: Will you convert the existing closed tickets to the milestones?
15:41:59 <bcotton> i mean this is 95% percent for my benefit if i'm being honest
15:42:02 <sgallagh> For search purposes
15:42:37 <King_InuYasha> bcotton: at least on Fedora Workstation, they show up here: https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/roadmap?status=all
15:42:46 <bcotton> sgallagh: that was going to be my next question. i can definitely do that for previously labeled issues (which goes back a few releases). do we want to go back beyond that? (through all 2900+ issues)
15:42:57 <King_InuYasha> bcotton: and they show up in the search filter as inactive milestones
15:43:23 <King_InuYasha> as long as you don't _delete_ the milestone, it's still searchable that way
15:43:30 <sgallagh> bcotton: Just the ones that have existing labels is fine.
15:43:51 <King_InuYasha> e.g. https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issues?milestone=Fedora+26&status=Closed
15:44:11 <bcotton> sgallagh: ack
15:45:47 <bcotton> King_InuYasha: right, i mean it inactive milestones won't show up in the selection when editing issue metadata so it's cleaner
15:46:25 <sgallagh> Ok, anything else for open floor?
15:46:31 <bcotton> so it sounds like there's a general consensus that moving F* from labels to milestones, including updating closed issues is good?
15:46:38 <zbyszek> yep
15:47:23 <bcotton> okay, i'll open an issue to show my work :-)
15:48:46 <sgallagh> Great
15:48:58 <bcotton> EOF
15:49:03 <sgallagh> I’ll close the meeting in two minutes if there is nothing else.
15:49:13 <zbyszek> Thanks sgallagh
15:49:26 <nirik> thanks sgallagh
15:49:35 <dcantrell> thanks sgallagh
15:50:21 <decathorpe> sgallagh++
15:50:21 <zodbot> decathorpe: Karma for sgallagh changed to 1 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
15:50:29 <decathorpe> good luck with the elections everybody
15:51:04 <sgallagh> Thanks for coming, everyone.
15:51:06 <cverna> thanks all
15:51:09 <sgallagh> #endmeeting