2025-01-14 17:01:26 <@fale:fale.io> .hi
2025-01-14 17:01:27 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !startmeeting FESCO (2025-01-14)
2025-01-14 17:01:28 <@meetbot:fedora.im> Meeting started at 2025-01-14 17:01:27 UTC
2025-01-14 17:01:29 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting name is 'FESCO (2025-01-14)'
2025-01-14 17:01:33 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !meetingname fesco
2025-01-14 17:01:34 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting Name is now fesco
2025-01-14 17:01:39 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Chairs: @conan_kudo:matrix.org, @ngompa:fedora.im, @nirik:matrix.scrye.com, @humaton:fedora.im, @zbyszek:fedora.im, @sgallagh:fedora.im, @fale:fale.io, @dcantrell:fedora.im, @decathorpe:fedora.im, @salimma:fedora.im
2025-01-14 17:01:43 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !topic Init Process
2025-01-14 17:01:46 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !hi
2025-01-14 17:01:47 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Stephen Gallagher (sgallagh) - he / him / his
2025-01-14 17:01:50 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> !hi
2025-01-14 17:01:51 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Neal Gompa (ngompa) - he / him / his
2025-01-14 17:01:57 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> morning
2025-01-14 17:02:32 <@humaton:fedora.im> !hi
2025-01-14 17:02:33 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Tomáš Hrčka (humaton) - he / him / his
2025-01-14 17:04:08 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> We've got five, which is quorum, but I'm going to give people another minute.
2025-01-14 17:05:39 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !hi
2025-01-14 17:05:40 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek (zbyszek)
2025-01-14 17:06:29 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Alright, let's get started.
2025-01-14 17:06:50 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !topic  #3320 Change: Switch to git-core
2025-01-14 17:06:54 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !fesco 3320
2025-01-14 17:06:55 <@zodbot:fedora.im> ● **Last Updated:** 21 hours ago
2025-01-14 17:06:55 <@zodbot:fedora.im> 
2025-01-14 17:06:55 <@zodbot:fedora.im> ● **Assignee:** mikelo2
2025-01-14 17:06:55 <@zodbot:fedora.im> ● **Opened:** a week ago by amoloney
2025-01-14 17:06:55 <@zodbot:fedora.im> **fesco #3320** (https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/3320):**Change: Switch to git-core**
2025-01-14 17:08:05 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> I have to say that I don't quite understand what are the fears wrt. this change. It seems like a fairly safe and straighfoward buildroot-requirement reduction.
2025-01-14 17:09:07 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> It feels to me like the sort of thing that should be socialized on Fedora Devel and a change that packagers should be advised to make.
2025-01-14 17:09:26 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> I don't see the value in the potentially-disruptive mass-package-update
2025-01-14 17:09:27 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> one slight objection I have (but haven't mentioned yet) is that there should probibly be a period when this is advertised and maintainers can adjust their own packages (avoiding PR's)
2025-01-14 17:09:37 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> yeah
2025-01-14 17:10:01 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Presumably, the maintainers of the packages should know best whether they need git-core or git.
2025-01-14 17:10:38 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> If we ask maintainers to do this, we'll get a few dozen packages updated. I don't think that's useful at all.
2025-01-14 17:10:47 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> nirik: Sure, but how do they then say "No, please don't change it" if they determine that they really do need the full git dep?
2025-01-14 17:11:03 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Close the PR with a comment?
2025-01-14 17:11:07 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> zbyszek: I don't think there's been a strong argument made for why doing this en masse is useful either.
2025-01-14 17:11:08 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> I don't think it will be sufficent, but I think allowing for that before the mass pr filing would be good.
2025-01-14 17:11:35 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> Add comment to the spec? # git is needed here because...
2025-01-14 17:12:15 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> No, not to the spec. The Change owner will open pull requests. If the owners close the PR, that should be the end of the story for that particular package.
2025-01-14 17:12:41 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> I mean, people can add comments to the spec file, more comments is usually good, but that's just a nicety.
2025-01-14 17:12:53 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> sure.
2025-01-14 17:12:55 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> What's the follow-up policy on the merge requestss?
2025-01-14 17:13:06 <@fale:fale.io> I think that if the Change owner opens the PRs, we could have a cutoff time (a couple of weeks) after which there could be an autorization to force-merge the open ones
2025-01-14 17:13:06 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Will the submitter merge them after some time if there's no activity?
2025-01-14 17:13:19 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Will they just sit there indefinitely if the maintainer doesn't monitor MRs?
2025-01-14 17:13:35 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Fale: agreed
2025-01-14 17:13:47 <@humaton:fedora.im> I checked the devel list thread and it was in some orphan packages announce sub thread
2025-01-14 17:13:54 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> (I'm asking for clarification, not trying to be confrontational)
2025-01-14 17:14:01 <@humaton:fedora.im> So I think it might be agood idea to promote it bit more?
2025-01-14 17:14:15 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> I don't see the answers to those questions in the Change proposal
2025-01-14 17:14:22 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> side note: we should think about this lifecycle in the new forge too. I mean there's PR's still open for a bunch of EOL releases. ;(
2025-01-14 17:15:11 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Then we should merge those PRs before we swich to the new forge.
2025-01-14 17:15:38 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> the new forge is more than a year away
2025-01-14 17:15:41 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> possibly two
2025-01-14 17:15:46 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> I want to see a merge request-only [*] process with the new forge. Direct pushes should be allowed only for mass-rebuilds. But that's a separate discussion entirely.
2025-01-14 17:15:49 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> it's not a concern I have
2025-01-14 17:16:05 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> I want to see a merge request-only \[\*\] process with the new forge.
2025-01-14 17:16:05 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> [*] Direct pushes should be allowed only for mass-rebuilds. But that's a separate discussion entirely.
2025-01-14 17:16:17 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I hope we never do that
2025-01-14 17:16:20 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> can you tell me the winning lotto tickets for next week too? anyhow, sorry, this is a sidetrack. Lets get back to the change
2025-01-14 17:16:23 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Stephen Gallagher: please no.
2025-01-14 17:16:27 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I hope we never do that (blocking direct pushes)
2025-01-14 17:17:11 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> Should we vote on it? or ask change owners to make adjustments (which?) and revisit next week?
2025-01-14 17:17:20 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Proposal: Change is approved with the clarification that a proven packager will merge all the pull requests which remain unanswered after 4 weeks.
2025-01-14 17:17:29 <@fale:fale.io> +1
2025-01-14 17:17:33 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> +1
2025-01-14 17:17:42 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> nirik: I at least am -1 until my questions about how the merge requests will be handled are included in the Change page
2025-01-14 17:18:06 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> we're basically specifying that right now in the proposal
2025-01-14 17:18:07 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> zbyszek: OK, I can get on board with that.
2025-01-14 17:18:15 <@humaton:fedora.im> +1
2025-01-14 17:18:23 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Conan Kudo: I was typing before that proposal hit. Race-condition.
2025-01-14 17:18:23 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> I guess +1...
2025-01-14 17:18:28 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> ah
2025-01-14 17:18:50 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> +1 to zbyszek 
2025-01-14 17:19:44 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !agreed Change is approved with the clarification that a proven packager will merge all the pull requests which remain unanswered after 4 weeks. (+6, 0, -0)
2025-01-14 17:20:02 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> That was the only discussion topic on the agenda.
2025-01-14 17:20:14 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> !info I'm volunteering be the provenpackager in question.
2025-01-14 17:20:33 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !info Change proposal needs updating to include information about the pull request deadline
2025-01-14 17:20:58 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !action zbyszek to handle merging MRs after four weeks
2025-01-14 17:21:09 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> (I'm not sure the !info will include your name in the summary)
2025-01-14 17:21:32 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Yeah, I should have used 3rd person.
2025-01-14 17:21:36 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !topic Next Week's Chair
2025-01-14 17:22:13 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Should be an easy one next week, since I processed all the remaining Changes this week. Who wants it?
2025-01-14 17:22:46 <@fale:fale.io> I'll be in an airport, so I would prefer not to chair it
2025-01-14 17:22:56 <@humaton:fedora.im> I would take it but meeting landed on my calendar next week
2025-01-14 17:23:15 <@humaton:fedora.im> so I will miss this one 
2025-01-14 17:23:45 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> I've not done it in a while... can take next week.
2025-01-14 17:24:56 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !action nirik to chair 2025-01-21 meeting
2025-01-14 17:25:01 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !topic Open Floor
2025-01-14 17:25:20 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Anything to discuss in the Open Floor today?
2025-01-14 17:25:37 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Yeah, the report for Council.
2025-01-14 17:26:01 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> IIRC, Stephen Gallagher wanted to look at it.
2025-01-14 17:26:09 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Can we send it out?
2025-01-14 17:29:26 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> I mean, mattdm is on the fesco list, so anything shared there or pointed to from there he should have already, no?
2025-01-14 17:29:37 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Sorry, I completely spaced this week and didn't review it. Skimming it now, but it looks fine at a glance
2025-01-14 17:29:47 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Yeah, but we should make it official.
2025-01-14 17:30:16 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> hey 👋 sorry, lost track of time 😬
2025-01-14 17:31:24 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> I'm not even sure where to send anything.
2025-01-14 17:31:24 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> OK, so… is anyone against sending out what we have now?
2025-01-14 17:32:02 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> by "sending out" you mean "ask council fesco liaisoin (however you spell that) to do handle this"?
2025-01-14 17:32:21 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Something like that. I guess that'd be the easiest.
2025-01-14 17:32:35 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> sure, there's that too. (although he isn't here today)
2025-01-14 17:33:15 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Yeah, I think that's probably David's responsibility to deliver the report to the Council
2025-01-14 17:33:29 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Or we could attach a pdf to the ticket that Matthew opened. I think we just just decide the general action, the details can be figured out later.
2025-01-14 17:35:37 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Just finished reading through the complete HackMD. That is... exceedingly detailed and comprehensive. Thank you for that.
2025-01-14 17:35:42 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> proposal: we ask dcantrell as the FESCO liaison to convey the report about provenpackager work to Council
2025-01-14 17:35:59 <@fale:fale.io> +1
2025-01-14 17:36:00 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> +1
2025-01-14 17:36:19 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> zbyszek: +1 (With the note that David is the *messenger*, not the sole owner)
2025-01-14 17:36:33 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Yes, of course.
2025-01-14 17:36:41 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> sure, +1.
2025-01-14 17:37:18 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Well, "shoot the messenger" is kind of what happened to him the first time around. I'd prefer to avoid that.
2025-01-14 17:37:52 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Conan Kudo: you still around?
2025-01-14 17:37:58 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> yes
2025-01-14 17:38:26 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> +1
2025-01-14 17:38:36 <@humaton:fedora.im> +1
2025-01-14 17:40:46 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Sorry, got distracted. Tallying votes now
2025-01-14 17:40:52 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> +7
2025-01-14 17:41:13 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !agreed we ask dcantrell as the FESCO liaison to convey the report about provenpackager work to Council (+7, 0, -0)
2025-01-14 17:41:37 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> OK, anything else today?
2025-01-14 17:42:22 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> (I can give access to the markdown source code if that's better than the rendered doc)
2025-01-14 17:42:49 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> I pushed the bin-sbin merge changes yesterday, and independently, Panu pushed the change to make sysusers dependencies hard. There was some fallout, but things are being fixed fairly quickly after issues are reported.
2025-01-14 17:43:33 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Fabio Valentini: Coordinate with dcantrell please
2025-01-14 17:43:48 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> sure
2025-01-14 17:44:04 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> nirik: How are things looking for the mass-rebuild tomorrow? Anything we should be concerned about?
2025-01-14 17:44:13 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> (I doubt that the mass rebuild can start on time anyway, since there's still three (?) gcc builds running and go 1.24 hasn't been built either)
2025-01-14 17:44:32 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> yeah, things still failling into line, we will see...
2025-01-14 17:45:45 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> I moved all the ppc64le builders to faster storage, but it hasnt seemed to made things that much faster. Still need to investigate further.
2025-01-14 17:46:26 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> nobody is complaining about s390x anymore, so you must have done *something* right :)
2025-01-14 17:46:49 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> I'm not sure if that's true or people have just given up hope for s390x :)
2025-01-14 17:47:02 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> yeah, I hope thats a lot better... hard to say, as people don't usually say 'hey, everything is working' :)
2025-01-14 17:47:22 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> as far as I can tell, it's really a lot better 
2025-01-14 17:47:29 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Kidding aside, I agree: I haven't seen a huge backlog pile-up on s390x for a while
2025-01-14 17:47:44 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Well done, releng!
2025-01-14 17:48:33 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> IIRC, Kevin restricted CI to a subset of builders now
2025-01-14 17:48:38 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> that's also helping
2025-01-14 17:49:13 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> yep. there's a pile of ci stuff waiting... they only get 2 builders currently.
2025-01-14 17:49:48 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I've certainly noticed that my builds are less stalled
2025-01-14 17:49:49 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> ah
2025-01-14 17:50:13 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> last cycle, llvm package CI runs swamped the whole build farm
2025-01-14 17:50:47 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> nobody ever expected the Fedora build environment to be used continuously with a huge backlog of requests like that
2025-01-14 17:51:41 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I've asked Brendan Conoboy to seriously look into expanding the build farm. We have been operating at a shortage for several years now, and the increased use of CI has exacerbated the problem significantly.
2025-01-14 17:52:14 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> We could just go back to not testing anything. I'm sure that would turn out fine! /sarcasm
2025-01-14 17:52:25 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> lol
2025-01-14 17:52:40 <@blc:fedora.im> Give me a sec, I"ll read scrollback..
2025-01-14 17:52:41 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I know that Fedora CI team was not super-happy with me when I implemented CI for the kiwi descriptions either
2025-01-14 17:52:53 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> there's not enough capacity to run tests for all the images defined there
2025-01-14 17:53:14 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> and there's the OpenQA issues too :(
2025-01-14 17:53:21 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Before we get too far down this rabbit hole: is there something actionable for FESCo to do here?
2025-01-14 17:53:27 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> not really
2025-01-14 17:53:28 <@blc:fedora.im> nirik: if you haven't already done so I think you should feel free to talk about the infra changes coming in the next few months
2025-01-14 17:53:41 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Because if not, we should probably take it out of the meeting.
2025-01-14 17:53:58 <@nirik:matrix.scrye.com> sure, I have a plan. :) Look for more soon.
2025-01-14 17:54:26 <@blc:fedora.im> Things will definitely get better this year.
2025-01-14 17:54:38 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I still need to write a spicy email about Konflux to devel@ :P
2025-01-14 17:55:38 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> I hope you mean "controversial" rather than "bodice-ripping" :)
2025-01-14 17:56:29 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> OK, does anyone have other business to bring before FESCo, or shall I close out the meeting?
2025-01-14 17:57:15 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> chants *close-it, close-it, close-it*
2025-01-14 17:58:25 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> Works for me. Thanks for participating, folks!
2025-01-14 17:58:52 <@zbyszek:fedora.im> Stephen Gallagher: thanks for chairing!
2025-01-14 17:58:54 <@sgallagh:fedora.im> !endmeeting