2025-04-24 16:00:14 <@james:fedora.im> !startmeeting fpc

2025-04-24 16:00:15 <@meetbot:fedora.im> Meeting started at 2025-04-24 16:00:14 UTC
2025-04-24 16:00:15 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting name is 'fpc'
2025-04-24 16:00:17 <@james:fedora.im> !topic Roll Call
2025-04-24 16:00:32 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> !hi
2025-04-24 16:00:33 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Fabio Valentini (decathorpe) - he / him / his
2025-04-24 16:00:36 <@limb:fedora.im> !hi
2025-04-24 16:00:37 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Gwyn Ciesla (limb) - she / her / hers
2025-04-24 16:00:40 <@tibbs:fedora.im> Hello.
2025-04-24 16:00:52 <@james:fedora.im> !hi
2025-04-24 16:00:53 <@zodbot:fedora.im> James Antill (james)
2025-04-24 16:01:06 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> !hi
2025-04-24 16:01:08 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Neal Gompa (ngompa) - he / him / his
2025-04-24 16:03:06 <@salimma:fedora.im> !hi
2025-04-24 16:03:07 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Michel Lind (salimma) - he / him / his
2025-04-24 16:07:58 <@james:fedora.im> Okay, today looks to be pretty unhinged. So hold on...
2025-04-24 16:08:09 <@james:fedora.im> !topic FPC PR#1454 https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/pull-request/1454
2025-04-24 16:08:59 <@james:fedora.im> So ... not much for us to do right now, I think. But it's pretty funny that Panu responded and it's basically "Yeh, don't do what we did before or what you are proposing."
2025-04-24 16:09:02 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> meh.
2025-04-24 16:09:38 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> surprise surprise, turns out the solution is "use what fits your case best" ...
2025-04-24 16:09:52 <@salimma:fedora.im> oh no
2025-04-24 16:09:52 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> it would help if there were better documentation for all this 
2025-04-24 16:10:16 <@tibbs:fedora.im> Yes, I think when RPM documentation is lacking, people look to the packaging guidelines.
2025-04-24 16:10:48 <@salimma:fedora.im> right
2025-04-24 16:10:50 <@tibbs:fedora.im> I only vaguely remember when we initially put this "global > define" thing in there.
2025-04-24 16:11:04 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> it would help if there were documentation about this
2025-04-24 16:11:07 <@salimma:fedora.im> if the upstream would just say "this is what global means, this is what define means, and these are where it makes sense to use each"
2025-04-24 16:11:28 <@salimma:fedora.im> and if the semantics change between RPM versions it would be really nice to know too
2025-04-24 16:11:39 <@james:fedora.im> Yeh, long time ago ... and I'm guessing it was around the time we started having python variables for the python version, which subshell'd out to get it.
2025-04-24 16:11:45 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> yes, this is essentially what I think we need.
2025-04-24 16:12:14 <@tibbs:fedora.im> But the real right place for this is in RPM's documentation, not our guidelines.  Unless we want to condense it and make a recommendation.
2025-04-24 16:12:43 <@salimma:fedora.im> definitely
2025-04-24 16:12:54 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> I still don't entirely understand why `%global` is suddenly considered "bad" - it might be more strict than actually necessary, but it doesn't *break* things?
2025-04-24 16:13:17 <@salimma:fedora.im> if they don't have docs ... should we ... submit what we think is the proper way to use them to the RPM docs, and let them nitpick that PR?
2025-04-24 16:13:40 <@salimma:fedora.im> yeah, I don't understand either, I thought we should use global by default and use define only if global does not suffice
2025-04-24 16:13:40 <@tibbs:fedora.im> I think if it broke things we wouldn't have much of a distro.  The problem really is that we make a recommendation when we shouldn't be making any recommendation.
2025-04-24 16:13:43 <@james:fedora.im> I think it's just a response to the previous recommendation of "always use global" and that meaning that people were doing the "global + %{expand: ... }
2025-04-24 16:14:07 <@tibbs:fedora.im> I think we're better off saying nothing at all instead of having what we have now.
2025-04-24 16:14:17 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> that probably makes sense to consider
2025-04-24 16:14:21 <@james:fedora.im> And now maybe people aren't subshell'ing out much, so "use define most of the time" is probably fine.
2025-04-24 16:14:54 <@tibbs:fedora.im> You could be right.  I really can't remember who drove the initial change, but RPM was a black box then.
2025-04-24 16:15:07 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> I don't get why `"global + %{expand: ... }` is bad either? 
2025-04-24 16:15:32 <@james:fedora.im> Conan Kudo: You do patches for dnf/etc. ... what do you think of submitting an rpm docs patch?
2025-04-24 16:16:00 <@james:fedora.im> Fabio Valentini: AIUI %global + %expand is just %define spelled in a really weird way.
2025-04-24 16:16:19 <@james:fedora.im> Or mostly %define, with some weird corner case differences.
2025-04-24 16:16:28 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> I only use %expand as syntactic sugar so I don't need to escape newlines
2025-04-24 16:16:56 <@salimma:fedora.im> same
2025-04-24 16:17:05 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I think that's a good idea. Are you asking me to write something without asking it outright? :P
2025-04-24 16:17:39 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> there's actually a decent chunk of our guidelines that are better described as "rpm docs in fedora" too
2025-04-24 16:17:53 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> it is worth considering whether some of that can be upstreamed
2025-04-24 16:17:55 <@james:fedora.im> Was mostly leaning on asking it outright tbf ... "what do you think about you writting/submitting an rpm docs patch?
2025-04-24 16:18:46 <@james:fedora.im> FWIW I think it'd be useful to have something in our docs ... but if that can be "here is a pointer to rpm docs on how this works", that'd be great.
2025-04-24 16:19:28 <@james:fedora.im> Then rpm can break their online docs again and we can get 666 tickets about it ;)
2025-04-24 16:20:22 <@salimma:fedora.im> 666 seems apt
2025-04-24 16:20:42 <@salimma:fedora.im> a very yummy number... ok do not force me to continue this tortured analogy
2025-04-24 16:21:31 <@james:fedora.im> !info Neal "volunteered" to look at patching upstream rpm docs.
2025-04-24 16:21:57 <@james:fedora.im> !topic FPC#1456 https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/issue/1456
2025-04-24 16:22:20 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> lol ok
2025-04-24 16:22:50 <@james:fedora.im> This issue makes me ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
2025-04-24 16:22:51 <@salimma:fedora.im> voluntold :)
2025-04-24 16:22:54 <@salimma:fedora.im> sorry Neal
2025-04-24 16:23:58 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> this rule change makes sense, but the examples don't
2025-04-24 16:24:03 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> the hplip one is just weird and wrong
2025-04-24 16:24:38 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> yeah "no new things got installed" is just wrong
2025-04-24 16:24:43 <@james:fedora.im> The "people should be able to install plugins without the thing the plug into" argument makes me shake my head.
2025-04-24 16:24:50 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> this is not "no new things" 😆
2025-04-24 16:24:50 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/hplip/blob/rawhide/f/hplip.spec#_936-969
2025-04-24 16:24:50 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> 
2025-04-24 16:25:03 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> there relevant case would be dnfdragora, which installs the correct backend dependencies based on what toolkits are present, but it's already a graphical application
2025-04-24 16:25:05 <@james:fedora.im> I can kind of understand it from a QA POV, but for normal random users?
2025-04-24 16:25:31 <@james:fedora.im> And QA type people can just turn weak deps off, right?
2025-04-24 16:25:44 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> yeah, for QA you can use `setopt=install_weak_deps=False`
2025-04-24 16:26:04 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> it's not weak, it's conditionally strong
2025-04-24 16:26:32 <@james:fedora.im> I thought all of these were conditional recommends?
2025-04-24 16:26:50 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> there are cases of conditional requires, though I don't think any are in the ticket
2025-04-24 16:27:13 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> libreoffice does this, for example
2025-04-24 16:27:43 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> that package needs a hammer taken to it
2025-04-24 16:27:51 <@james:fedora.im> Yeh, I'd be happier to ban requires ... or at least say they should be recommends
2025-04-24 16:28:33 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> well, conditional requires can make sense, it's really case by case
2025-04-24 16:28:59 <@salimma:fedora.im> we really should document some of the use cases in the documentation I guess
2025-04-24 16:29:13 <@salimma:fedora.im> it's a bit hard to reason about the use cases and make sure they all work, otherwise
2025-04-24 16:29:24 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> but like, this rule basically means nothing for KDE because the whole stack is plugin based architectures
2025-04-24 16:29:27 <@salimma:fedora.im> or even, for some cases where the packaging is wrong and needs to be changed
2025-04-24 16:29:43 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> so visible apps are dependent on other visible apps because internally everything is a plugin
2025-04-24 16:30:40 <@james:fedora.im> KDE doesn't break out the plugin bits from the main desktop/UI bits?
2025-04-24 16:31:10 <@james:fedora.im> Package wise, I mean.
2025-04-24 16:32:50 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> not always
2025-04-24 16:33:03 <@james:fedora.im> After asking that, I'm not sure I want to know anymore ;)
2025-04-24 16:33:03 <@james:fedora.im> You could always comment in the issue and say "please don't break KDE", which would be amusing if nothing else.
2025-04-24 16:33:21 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> can't the whole paragraph be replaced with essentially "apply the principle of least surprise"? 
2025-04-24 16:33:25 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> A lot of it is subpackaged out, but some of the older ones haven't
2025-04-24 16:33:32 <@salimma:fedora.im> "KDE is an edition now, you can't break it"
2025-04-24 16:34:02 <@limb:fedora.im> s/can't/may not/g
2025-04-24 16:34:04 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> same goes for GNOME, most of their packaging is ancient and pretty out of compliance with current guidelines
2025-04-24 16:34:14 <@limb:fedora.im> Because oh yes you can. ;)
2025-04-24 16:34:19 <@james:fedora.im> I'm pretty sure I'd +1 something like this and close the issue as fixed.
2025-04-24 16:34:34 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I think this is pretty fair
2025-04-24 16:34:47 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> to be honest, we probably should say that for dependencies _in general_
2025-04-24 16:35:14 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> - Was I surprised that a normal system update pulled in HP Printer software GUI? Yes. :)
2025-04-24 16:35:14 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> - Would I be surprised if installing a gnome-shell extension installed the official app for managing extensions? Probably not.
2025-04-24 16:35:36 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> our philosophy is already that, which is why we don't do openSUSE-style packaging of each dso as its own subpackage
2025-04-24 16:35:57 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> we just don't spell it out :P
2025-04-24 16:35:57 <@james:fedora.im> I think it's the update part that is surprising there though ... if I installed all the hp printer stuff and also got a GUI for it, that doesn't seem surprising.
2025-04-24 16:36:21 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> yes, that would definitely be less surprising
2025-04-24 16:36:30 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> though why install the GUI only if Qt5 is installed then?
2025-04-24 16:36:58 <@james:fedora.im> I guess people want printers but to not have Qt installed?
2025-04-24 16:37:21 <@tibbs:fedora.im> I can't be the only person with a headless print server.
2025-04-24 16:37:33 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> the thing is, Qt5 was default-installed on most Fedora variants until only a couple years ago
2025-04-24 16:37:45 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> because Fedora Media Writer is Qt-based
2025-04-24 16:37:58 <@james:fedora.im> Wouldn't be shocked if you are the only person with a printer, TBH ;)
2025-04-24 16:38:19 <@salimma:fedora.im> I have a printer. I refuse to use HP :)
2025-04-24 16:38:27 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> and yes refuse to use HP
2025-04-24 16:38:33 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I owned a Brother printer
2025-04-24 16:38:37 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> an MFC even
2025-04-24 16:39:04 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> it wasn't wireless and eventually broke, so I got rid of it and didn't need one ever since eFiling for taxes became possible
2025-04-24 16:39:21 <@tibbs:fedora.im> Everyone here wants their own printer in their office.
2025-04-24 16:39:29 <@salimma:fedora.im> I had a Brother laser printer, now a Lexmark MFC
2025-04-24 16:39:47 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Lexmark used to be great
2025-04-24 16:39:57 <@salimma:fedora.im> still quite decent really
2025-04-24 16:40:00 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I used to have a refurb office grade Lexmark MFC that was as tall as me
2025-04-24 16:40:08 <@salimma:fedora.im> my HOA and a lot of expense forms require printing and signing :P
2025-04-24 16:40:49 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> :gavel: :gavel: :gavel: 
2025-04-24 16:40:56 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> ordaaaaar
2025-04-24 16:41:02 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> 🖨️
2025-04-24 16:41:13 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> 🗞️
2025-04-24 16:41:42 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> so what do we do about the ticket?
2025-04-24 16:42:44 <@james:fedora.im> I think this is as close to agreement as we've got with any proposed wording.
2025-04-24 16:43:23 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> so you're saying that I should make this a PR?
2025-04-24 16:43:51 <@tibbs:fedora.im> My perspective is that things which can be installed without a GUI shouldn't magically get a GUI through package dependencies.  Just because servers and headless systems exist.
2025-04-24 16:44:30 <@james:fedora.im> I would add "if weak dependencies are turned off"
2025-04-24 16:44:47 <@tibbs:fedora.im> And I thought that was the point of the current guideline, but I guess there is a difference between "GUI" and "package containing a desktop file" which someone has decided means the rule doesn't apply to what they are doing.
2025-04-24 16:45:58 <@salimma:fedora.im> should the distinction be between apps meant to just configure something vs the main apps?
2025-04-24 16:46:16 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> unfortunately nowadays there's a lot of abuse of the desktop file format for non application things
2025-04-24 16:46:24 <@salimma:fedora.im> not sure how to phrase it, but you know, GNOME Extensions is something to configure extensions (should really be in control center, but... that's another can of worms), hplip to configure printers, etc.
2025-04-24 16:46:59 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> to be honest, if we had hardware supplements, that would make sense to use here
2025-04-24 16:47:08 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> that's what the suse folks do
2025-04-24 16:47:51 <@james:fedora.im> I think the main difference is between "I know what I'm doing and want to install X to solve Y" and "I'm a user and want to try X" ... the former shouldn't install extra things unless they are really needed, the later probably wants to install a bunch of stuff so the user doesn't have to hunt around for X-gui or whatever it's called.
2025-04-24 16:48:09 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> RPM would know whether I have an HP printer in my network or not ??? 
2025-04-24 16:48:37 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> well... we _could_ do that 🤣
2025-04-24 16:48:46 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> 🙅🙅🙅🙅🙅🙅
2025-04-24 16:48:48 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> easy enough with the right plugin
2025-04-24 16:48:54 <@limb:fedora.im> That sounds like a job for systemd
2025-04-24 16:49:03 <@tibbs:fedora.im> Could we just say what we are trying to accomplish and ask people to try to achieve that?
2025-04-24 16:49:29 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> but but but automagic plug and play
2025-04-24 16:49:34 <@james:fedora.im> Yeh, if you know how to word that.
2025-04-24 16:50:11 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> but in all seriousness, driverless networked printers probably need hplip less since they all can be configured through a web endpoint
2025-04-24 16:50:34 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> and cups-ipp is supposed to be able to work with that
2025-04-24 16:51:53 <@decathorpe:fedora.im> ok, let's agree that hplip is a bad example?
2025-04-24 16:52:06 <@limb:fedora.im> I have a networked HP MFC and forgot hplip existed.
2025-04-24 16:52:26 <@limb:fedora.im> coreutils Requires: scribus is always wrong.
2025-04-24 16:53:29 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> wtf who would consider such insanity?
2025-04-24 16:53:41 <@limb:fedora.im> Exactly.
2025-04-24 16:54:11 <@limb:fedora.im> Sometimes reducto ad absurdum helps find a helpful boundary.
2025-04-24 16:54:35 <@james:fedora.im> I think that was an intentionally wrong example nobody would ever try, except Neal has PTSD and assumed it was attempted.
2025-04-24 16:55:06 <@limb:fedora.im> And I'll offer Neal a hug if we meet IRL.
2025-04-24 16:55:52 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Indeed.
2025-04-24 16:56:05 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> aww :)
2025-04-24 16:56:22 <@limb:fedora.im> And now Neal will never merge a PR from me without reading it.
2025-04-24 16:56:30 <@james:fedora.im> haha
2025-04-24 16:57:59 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> 😰
2025-04-24 16:58:05 <@salimma:fedora.im> is that your intent :P
2025-04-24 16:58:33 <@limb:fedora.im> I mean that should already have been true TBH
2025-04-24 16:58:45 <@james:fedora.im> Well, we are almost at time ... I think the preface warning that this meeting would be unhinged was valid and successful.
2025-04-24 16:58:56 <@james:fedora.im> Any final words?
2025-04-24 16:58:57 <@limb:fedora.im> Happy to help.
2025-04-24 16:59:52 <@james:fedora.im> If nobody else comments on 1456, I'll probably post something later.
2025-04-24 17:00:17 <@james:fedora.im> See you next week.
2025-04-24 17:00:20 <@james:fedora.im> !endmeeting