20:00:28 <riecatnor[m]> #startmeeting Mindshare
20:00:28 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Feb 10 20:00:28 2022 UTC.
20:00:28 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
20:00:28 <zodbot> The chair is riecatnor[m]. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions.
20:00:28 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
20:00:28 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'mindshare'
20:00:34 <riecatnor[m]> #meetingname Mindshare
20:00:34 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'mindshare'
20:00:47 <mizmo> 👋
20:01:12 <AlbertoRodrguezS> Hello
20:01:16 <riecatnor[m]> #chair Alberto Rodríguez Sánchez Máirín Duffy tyll nb vipul pbokoc Onuralp Sezer relrod_
20:01:16 <zodbot> Current chairs: Alberto Duffy Máirín Onuralp Rodríguez Sezer Sánchez nb pbokoc relrod_ riecatnor[m] tyll vipul
20:01:22 <riecatnor[m]> #info About Mindshare: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/mindshare/
20:01:44 <riecatnor[m]> #topic Hello
20:01:54 <riecatnor[m]> hey peeps! how's it goin today?
20:02:30 <AlbertoRodrguezS> Today is a good day for me 😊
20:02:35 <riecatnor[m]> we've gotten so much snow the past week, my car was fully snowed in over the weekend
20:02:51 <riecatnor[m]> we like good days :D
20:03:09 <pbokoc> Hi there
20:03:38 <riecatnor[m]> hey hey
20:04:03 <riecatnor[m]> #topic announcements and info
20:04:09 <riecatnor[m]> #info Call for projects and mentors for GSoC 2022 are open
20:04:16 <riecatnor[m]> #link https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/call-for-projects-and-mentors-gsoc-2022/
20:04:21 <riecatnor[m]> #link https://pagure.io/mentored-projects/issues
20:04:26 <riecatnor[m]> #info Schedule for Fedora 37 released
20:04:31 <riecatnor[m]> #link https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/fedora-linux-37-schedule/
20:04:39 <riecatnor[m]> #info FedoraShareYourScreen week was last week, with plenty of engagement on various social media platforms. looking forward to seeing a collection of screenshots!
20:04:44 <riecatnor[m]> #link https://fedoramagazine.org/fedorashareyourscreen-week-f35/
20:04:50 <riecatnor[m]> #info openSUSE conference CfP now open until April 14th 2022
20:04:56 <riecatnor[m]> #link https://events.opensuse.org/conferences/oSC22
20:05:01 <riecatnor[m]> #info devconf.US CfP now open until April 15th
20:05:06 <riecatnor[m]> #link https://www.devconf.info/us/
20:05:14 <riecatnor[m]> #info 2021's Code of Conduct report has been published on the CommBlog
20:05:20 <riecatnor[m]> #link https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/fedora-code-of-conduct-report-2021/
20:05:55 <riecatnor[m]> #info a statement has been released about the non-compliant blog "WeMakeFedora"
20:05:59 <riecatnor[m]> #link https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/statement-on-we-make-fedora/
20:06:49 <riecatnor[m]> any more additions to the announcements/info sections?
20:08:01 <AlbertoRodrguezS> Not from me
20:08:15 <riecatnor[m]> #topic today's agenda
20:08:17 <riecatnor[m]> I have a couple ticket's I plan to bring up
20:08:28 <riecatnor[m]> are there any topics folks would like to discuss today?
20:08:45 <mizmo> well
20:09:04 <mizmo> i had a discussion with some of the websites & apps folks last night
20:09:10 <MadelinePeck[m]> Hi everyone!
20:09:29 <mizmo> i wanted to talk about potentially some kind of contributor-focused overriding model for fedora (kind of a corollary to the F model for users)
20:09:40 <mizmo> so maybe the topic would be "contributor-focused model"
20:10:32 <AlbertoRodrguezS> Sounds goog
20:10:35 <AlbertoRodrguezS> Good
20:10:44 <riecatnor[m]> ok, cool- lets move through some tickets quick and then leave a nice chunk of time to discuss that
20:10:54 <riecatnor[m]> #topic tickets
20:11:09 <riecatnor[m]> #link https://pagure.io/mindshare/issue/313
20:12:10 <riecatnor[m]> I am +1 to recognize CoreOS contributors
20:12:34 <riecatnor[m]> I see Tills point, the criteria for requesting a tshirt is currently undefined
20:12:36 <AlbertoRodrguezS> +1 too
20:13:37 <riecatnor[m]> thoughts about this?
20:13:38 <tyll> I am in general fine to recognize contributors. What is not clear to me is why to to do this for CoreOS contributors but not for provenpackagers, sponsors, package reviewers, Fedora Linux packagers...
20:13:58 <tyll> or Python SIG, KDE Sig, ...
20:14:55 <mizmo> does coreOS align to an initiative or strategic goal especially
20:14:57 <mizmo> do we have those defined
20:15:10 <riecatnor[m]> My thought is, they are active, they are bringing the request.. and others have not. I think we could fit in tshirts for more working groups budget wise, but not all at the same time
20:15:18 <riecatnor[m]> https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2516?
20:15:45 <riecatnor[m]> there are plans to make it an edition, but they don't seem set
20:16:23 <tyll> mizmo: this was my first thought, too. We only have objectives AFAIK and they are not part of it atm
20:16:55 <mizmo> i mean i would say, relative to other esp older teams within fedora, i think their efforts might not be as visible
20:17:11 <mizmo> so a special recognition in that sense would seem warranted
20:17:31 <tyll> https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/objectives/ are the current objectives
20:18:47 <riecatnor[m]> are there any CoreOS related activities/events that it could be attached to? for example a test day, but I am nto sure that is applicable
20:19:18 * mizmo doesnt know
20:19:56 <riecatnor[m]> I can ask on the ticket
20:20:29 <tyll> what would be the estimated budget impact for 70 t-shirts?
20:20:56 <riecatnor[m]> one sec, lemme look.
20:21:25 <riecatnor[m]> $700-1000 USD
20:21:26 <tyll> In the past, I believe only Ambassadors had specific t-shirts and I remember hats for Fedora Atomic.
20:21:39 <riecatnor[m]> I remember silverblue things, python things
20:21:53 <mizmo> we have fedora design team shirts. they were like 12 years ago it hink (spevack was FPL lol) but they exist
20:22:04 <mizmo> i think ARM ones too
20:22:19 <riecatnor[m]> since we have a lot to cover today, and this does not seem settled, please continue to discuss on the ticket for now
20:22:29 <riecatnor[m]> #link https://pagure.io/mindshare/issue/317
20:22:32 <tyll> would be nice to have some kind of generic t-shirts and some fabric patches for the teams
20:22:45 <tyll> like stickers but for shirts
20:23:02 <mizmo> i dont think clement is sure how many to order and i think that depends on pricing bc in the design ticket he said 30-40 i think
20:23:11 <mizmo> https://pagure.io/design/issue/784
20:23:41 <mizmo> fedora shirt + pins
20:23:46 <mizmo> like a girl scout sash hehe
20:23:59 <AlbertoRodrguezS> :)
20:24:19 <tyll> the easiest solution to make it somewhat fair would be IMHO to make it part of the t-shirt drive from ticket #314
20:24:25 * mizmo is all about non t-shirt swag btw
20:24:39 <tyll> so that people can then choose between the generic Fedora or CoreOS shirt
20:25:06 <riecatnor[m]> I am not sure that would work bc the right people might not get the coreOS shirt
20:25:10 <mizmo> doesnt the shirt have to be produced and in the warehouse to be chosen from the store tho
20:25:16 <mizmo> these arent print by demand
20:25:32 <riecatnor[m]> Gentle reminder we are tight on time and we could use the entire hour to discuss tshirts :)
20:25:40 <riecatnor[m]> since this is not settled, please discuss on the ticket
20:25:56 <riecatnor[m]> let's look here->
20:25:56 <riecatnor[m]> https://pagure.io/mindshare/issue/317
20:26:32 <mizmo> wow $100 per? is that including shipping i guess?
20:26:51 <riecatnor[m]> yes, that is my understanding, but we can ask for clarification
20:27:02 <AlbertoRodrguezS> Please
20:27:23 <riecatnor[m]> overall, I think this is a great effort
20:27:40 <AlbertoRodrguezS> Yes
20:28:05 <riecatnor[m]> I am +1 but I think we need some more specifics
20:28:54 <AlbertoRodrguezS> Ok, +1 too.
20:29:09 <mizmo> i feel ill-equipped to approve budget at this level of granularity - the swag i would need specifics. for the keynote speaker $1k seems excessive to me
20:29:21 <riecatnor[m]> it depends on the speaker
20:29:26 <mizmo> i dont know why the workshops cost money. is that the fee for the conference platform?
20:29:39 <riecatnor[m]> That would be to bring in some sort of formal training for mentors
20:29:48 * tyll has the same questions as mizmo
20:30:01 <riecatnor[m]> this will be on Hopin, which is covered by OSPO
20:30:31 <mizmo> are there mentor training contractors being looking at?
20:30:47 <mizmo> what kind of training is it meant to be? like how to be a mentor? (arent the mentors already mentors?)
20:31:08 <mizmo> (sorry these are probably dumb questions - like i said, feeling a bit ill-equipped to evaluate this!)
20:31:17 <riecatnor[m]> no worries :) these are good questions
20:31:36 <riecatnor[m]> my understanding is that Vipul is researching  options for mentor training
20:31:38 <AlbertoRodrguezS> Actually, ere very good questions
20:32:09 <mizmo> it says its an unconference
20:32:10 <riecatnor[m]> the idea behind formal trainings or workshops is to improve mentorship skills
20:32:16 <mizmo> and those arent supposed to cost a ton of money
20:32:35 <mizmo> and im not saying 5k is necessarily a ton of money esp in terms of pre-covid in person stuff.. but
20:32:39 <riecatnor[m]> $5000 is not a ton of money, from my perspective
20:32:41 <AlbertoRodrguezS> Maybe in some exceptional circumstances
20:32:45 <riecatnor[m]> it is a nice chunk tho.
20:32:51 <mizmo> is it an unconference or is it a professional development event? these are two diametrically opposed things in my head
20:33:00 <AlbertoRodrguezS> For me it is 😅
20:33:15 <riecatnor[m]> right, in the scope of fedoras budget lol- it is a lot to me too
20:33:26 <AlbertoRodrguezS> 😁
20:33:27 <mizmo> what is the expected return on the investment
20:33:33 <mizmo> like are the problems this could help solve
20:33:39 <riecatnor[m]> so, i think those are good quetions Mo- would be willing to drop them onto the ticket?
20:33:44 <mizmo> do we have dissatisfaction with the quality of mentoring in fedora we'd be looking to measure and see improvement on
20:33:47 <mizmo> sure
20:33:49 <riecatnor[m]> awesome
20:34:07 <mizmo> wanted to bring them up here bc i wanted a sanity check that im not being unfair or dumb
20:34:54 <riecatnor[m]> I think these are all great questions and will help the organizers make the event more useful and the budget go farther
20:35:23 <riecatnor[m]> let's move to Mo's topic!
20:35:25 <riecatnor[m]> #topic contributor-focused model
20:36:48 <mizmo> So a while back i made the "F" model, that is user-centric
20:36:59 <mizmo> to help guide decisions about how we tell the story of Fedora to prospective users on the website
20:37:12 <mizmo> https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/a-new-conceptual-model-for-fedora/
20:37:39 <mizmo> In talking with Akashdeep and ryanlerch last night, it became clear we might need one that is contributor-centric as well
20:38:21 <mizmo> The context was that we were talking about (amongst many other things) how can we make prioritization decisions about different website/app projects aimed at users and aimed at contributors to understand which are the most strategic / best investment of time/effort and which should be lesser priority
20:38:24 <riecatnor[m]> I think it will look like a full comb instead of an F :)
20:39:10 <mizmo> And the F model I think has helped me at least make decisions about the design for the new website, thinking smtg similar for contributors could be used to weigh decisions about, for example, which contributor focused apps are best to work on
20:39:58 <mizmo> like sometimes we pick projects to work on not based on their priority / strategic importance but because they seem approachable, or fun, or whatever. and there's nothign wrong with the latter, but if we want to make a case to get help for important things to move forward faster.... we need some kind of high level strategy
20:40:19 <mizmo> Some of the specific lower level things we talked about wrt a potential contributor centric model
20:40:22 <mizmo> where do our contributors come from
20:40:29 <mizmo> traditioanlly we've thought about the user => contributor funnel right
20:40:31 <riecatnor[m]> I think part of it too is just setting the remit for the web & apps team so they know what the heck to work on and what not to
20:41:00 <mizmo> but ive noticed as of late in the design team channel... we get folks who aren't necessarily fedora users, but are interested in free/libre culture and heard through the grapevine we have an active team and drop by to check it out
20:41:08 <mizmo> we've had inkscape, mozilla, and most recently a Tor designer drop by
20:41:16 <mizmo> so i think we have other pipelines/funnels
20:41:22 <mizmo> there's also the outreachy/GSoC funnel
20:41:31 <riecatnor[m]> that is rad 🤩
20:41:48 <mizmo> so I think we might want a broader, documented idea of where our contributors are coming from, where they could come from, and make sure we're meeting them where they are to draw them in 🙂
20:42:01 <mizmo> and what is the story we have for them when they come in the door
20:42:14 <mizmo> it's getting better... we've moved from out of date static wiki page to matrix and discourse
20:42:32 <mizmo> but those are tools... what is the higher level story for how we lead them in and what they experience
20:42:38 <riecatnor[m]> I am thinking about the contributor survey.. maybe it would be good to add a Q that helps us answer this question
20:42:50 <mizmo> and further down the road.... stuff like who gets t-shirts which i think touches tyll 's concerns about that last ticket
20:42:57 <mizmo> we dont want folks to feel like things are unfair
20:42:59 <riecatnor[m]> so that we can track it over the years, as well.
20:43:15 <mizmo> how many contributor surveys have we done so far riecatnor ?
20:43:26 <riecatnor[m]> just one, but we are starting prep for the next already
20:43:27 <riecatnor[m]> time flies!
20:43:36 <riecatnor[m]> it will run in the month of June
20:43:42 <mizmo> ok cool, i think reviewing the first one will be a rich data source to help with this
20:43:46 <AlbertoRodrguezS> Cool
20:43:49 <riecatnor[m]> yes! let me grab a link fo ryou
20:43:53 <mizmo> im thinking ill do a blog post on this too
20:44:01 <riecatnor[m]> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Annual_Contributor_Survey_2021
20:44:03 <mizmo> and maybe make a mindshare ticket to track it?
20:44:16 <riecatnor[m]> we are working on getting a whole section in the council docs for the survey, but there is this for now :)
20:44:22 <riecatnor[m]> mizmo: absolutely!
20:44:42 <mizmo> cool 🙂
20:44:56 <mizmo> i can take ownership of sort of sheparding this as a little project if nobody has any objections
20:45:02 <riecatnor[m]> this is great stuff, looking forward to your first post!
20:45:22 <mizmo> im trying to incorporate contributor onramps contextually into the new website design os having some kind of framework to help organize that will help me in that work
20:45:54 <riecatnor[m]> absolutely. I think it might be beneficial to do a call at some point for interested folks? some high bandwidth discussions seems right for this type of discussion?
20:46:03 <riecatnor[m]> I could probably rope Matthew & Ben in
20:46:11 <mizmo> sounds good 🙂
20:46:40 <riecatnor[m]> Cool!
20:46:56 <riecatnor[m]> anything more on that for today?
20:47:20 <AlbertoRodrguezS> 😊
20:47:56 <mizmo> no but as Iḿ writing up the feedback on the mentor summit req one thing came to mind
20:48:08 <tyll> I like this idea. It sounds very useful to get more clarity here.
20:48:18 <mizmo> if we spend $1k on a keynote speaker $2k on a training, that's $3k, for 20 ppl
20:48:33 <mizmo> wouldn't spending $1k on a keynote speaker be better for a larger attendee audience?
20:48:48 <mizmo> training depending i could see maybe being constrained to an upper bound of audience but
20:49:03 <riecatnor[m]> I think there may be other resources to tap for both the trainings and the keynote
20:49:21 <tyll> +1
20:49:53 <AlbertoRodrguezS> +1
20:50:10 <riecatnor[m]> we have a wealth of knowledge in Red Hat's OSPO and some Fedora folks very experienced with mentorship in our community already
20:50:59 <riecatnor[m]> maybe we could suggest a call for volunteers to run said workshops, and I can explore those OSPO channels
20:52:12 <riecatnor[m]> ok let's try to squeeze in one more ticket
20:52:15 <riecatnor[m]> #topic tickets
20:52:16 <riecatnor[m]> #link https://pagure.io/mindshare/issue/314
20:52:48 <riecatnor[m]> we discussed this in a previous mindshare call, and the idea that seemed the best was the third option: Choose a date, create promotional materials, and do a first come, first serve for 750 tee shirts"
20:53:14 <riecatnor[m]> I'd like to get this moving if possible
20:53:27 <riecatnor[m]> so I think our next step is choosing a date, and deciding what promotions we want to do
20:54:16 <mizmo> could make the date F36 release day
20:54:31 <tyll> what is your expectation for how long it will take for 750 people to claim a shirt?
20:54:43 <riecatnor[m]> #link https://fedorapeople.org/groups/schedule/f-36/f-36-key-tasks.html
20:55:05 <tyll> due to the different timezones, it might be more challenging for some contributors to be first
20:55:09 <riecatnor[m]> I think we would leave it open for 2-4 weeks (depending on what we think is best) or close it wehn they aer all gone
20:55:34 <tyll> so you assume it will take more time than a few hours?
20:55:40 <riecatnor[m]> oh yes, definitely
20:55:50 <riecatnor[m]> The nest one stayed open during the conference and a week after iirc
20:55:57 <mizmo> could the store (oh i know they can be challenging to work with) have 3 items that are the same thing but each have a quantity of 250
20:56:04 <mizmo> so a different link per major 8 hour tz
20:56:12 <mizmo> (if that was a concern)
20:56:14 <riecatnor[m]> mm, I see
20:56:24 <riecatnor[m]> I can ask about that
20:56:55 <mizmo> also is there a base requirement here, like have a FAS acct or smtg?
20:57:08 <riecatnor[m]> I think we should require folks to use their fedora email address
20:57:29 <riecatnor[m]> if they don't use a fedora email address, the order wont send? Is that reasonable?
20:57:33 <mizmo> can the store handle that?
20:57:37 <tyll> also, just in case you don't have this in mind already, the 750 shirts should also be properly distributed across sizes to avoid that at the end only 250 shirts of least common sizes are left
20:57:46 <riecatnor[m]> I think so
20:57:58 <riecatnor[m]> I am not sure they can divide inventory by timezone, but they can by country
20:58:16 <riecatnor[m]> (iirc) sounds like I need to get answers to these Q's
20:58:16 <AlbertoRodrguezS> The fedora e-mail address sounds good
20:58:49 <mizmo> having the same item listed three times is a bit of a hack that could get them there if they were willing to do it
20:59:05 <riecatnor[m]> I will see what can be done!
20:59:06 <tyll> maybe also a requirement that the account already exists for a certain time?
20:59:31 <riecatnor[m]> that would be harder to implement, we would most likely need to do that check process ourselves
20:59:40 <mizmo> oh i just had weird rando idea
20:59:48 <mizmo> if we made it the f36 release date
21:00:08 <mizmo> when you click on the link to download f36 iso.... could it give you a link to the store to get the shrit
21:00:26 <mizmo> but thatd mess up our DL stats im sure lol
21:00:29 <tyll> hehe
21:00:39 <riecatnor[m]> I don't update like that :P
21:00:41 <riecatnor[m]> should I be?? lol
21:01:11 <mizmo> $ dnf upgrade
21:01:11 <mizmo> > --- visit blahblahblah.com/item/223423 to get your free fedora shirt!!
21:01:11 <mizmo> $
21:01:14 <riecatnor[m]> so, I was thinking we want to try to move the shirts before the f36 release party- well really as soon as we are able to figure out the details- due to the storage fees
21:01:29 <riecatnor[m]> it would be nice if people could wear the new tshirt at the release party, as well
21:01:30 <mizmo> how about beta
21:01:31 <tyll> can we get individual voucher codes so that we have our own service that distributes the codes based on our criteria?
21:01:58 <mizmo> ive read horror stories about non individualized voucher codes being abused by this system
21:02:06 <riecatnor[m]> just realized we are over time!
21:02:06 <mizmo> but i suspect individualized isnt something they can do
21:02:25 <riecatnor[m]> so, its possible, but it does become a LOT more complicated. I would need assistance
21:02:53 <riecatnor[m]> I remember hearing something about a mail merge? idk if I am thinking of the right thing
21:03:26 <riecatnor[m]> still some important questions to answer for this- I will work on that
21:03:36 <mizmo> i can do mail merge lol
21:03:50 <mizmo> happy to assist if it helps
21:03:54 <riecatnor[m]> thanks everyone for the discussion, and hope the rest of your day is lovely in some way :)
21:03:57 <riecatnor[m]> #endmeeting